How Broad Should an Author Platform Be? With Joanna Penn

HOW BROAD SHOULD AN author platform be? In this multi-outlet age of social media, podcasts, live streaming, blogging and whatever is about to emerge, how many places do you need to show up to showcase your writing? Can someone please just tell me? Yes, someone can. Her name is Joanna Penn and I suggest you read along as you listen to us take on the author platform and much, much more.

Marion: It’s possible that Joanna is the hardest working writer on Earth. She’s considered an authority on writing fiction, writing nonfiction, marketing, making a living in writing, as well as publishing in AI and the future of creativity. She’s a New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers. She writes inspirational nonfiction for authors and is an award-winning creative entrepreneur and international professional speaker.

In other words, she’s made books her life. She’s published more than 30 books and makes her books available in hardback, paperback, ebook, audio, and large print editions. When I look at all of this, I see not only someone who’s wildly successful but is also widely accessible, making her work and herself available to us on many different platforms. And she begs the question, of course, “How broad should an author platform be?” Let’s ask her that and more. I’m delighted to have you here. Welcome, Joanna.

Joanna: Aw. Thanks so much, Marion. That was a lovely introduction.

Marion: Well it’s all true, too. It’s an extraordinary world that you’ve built, and I’m a great believer that creativity builds creative worlds. I believe that the work we engage in changes the world and we expand. You know, you build the worldview that you want, and you seem to live this ethic of trying so much that’s out there in the creative world.

Joanna: Yeah, well I completely agree with you, and I often think about creativity as this pipe coming from wherever you think it’s coming from, and of course we fill the pipe with ideas. We read. We watch things. We travel, sometimes when we can. We experience the world, and that kind of mushes up together in our brains, and then we turn that into our creative projects. Of course you have memoir, and you do a lot of nonfiction. I find myself … I was editing my latest novel this morning, and I wonder sometimes where this stuff comes from.

But all of that together just needs to be expressed, and keeping with the metaphor of the pipe, I feel that so many writers get so stuck on the one project for so long that maybe that is the thing that blocks the pipe. A lot of non-writers will ask, “Where do you get your ideas?” And those of us who write know ideas are never the problem. It’s actually getting those projects out there and finished.

So yeah, so I do. I just try to stay creative everyday, and in fact on my wall here I have a sign that says, “Have you made art today?” That’s kind of how I live.

Marion: Yeah, I get that. Absolutely. Well, I want to just go back a little bit to when we first met, and yours was the first podcast I was ever on. Which means you were a really early adopter. Because it’s quite a while ago now. But you also seem to be a full range adopter of many ways in which one can communicate with readers. And that’s not typical of all writers. So let’s start by talking about the value of exposure.

It seems obvious, but I think many writers still believe if they write it, an audience will, well let’s just say, magically drop from the sky. So what’s the reality of how authors need to promote themselves?

Joanna: Yeah, sure. First of all, you used the word exposure, and I want to address that immediately. I don’t think it is exposure. It is curated brand management in a way. So I’m being completely myself with you right now, but it’s only an aspect of myself. I’m not going to talk about my husband. I’m not going to talk about weight management on your show. That’s not curated for your audience. I want authors to think about that as they consider what they want to put out in the world.

So for example, with my fiction I write as JF Penn, and I love graveyards. And I write about graveyards sometimes and put ossuaries and crypts in my books. So I’ll share pictures of graveyards and things, and that will attract a certain audience. It’s not for everyone, and some people listening will think I’m mad. But that attracts a certain type of person, and perhaps that type of person would like my books. So, that’s an example of a curated brand management rather than exposure. So it’s alright, people, you don’t have to share everything about your life. So that’s one.

The second thing is I do think it is important. So perhaps because I’ve been independently publishing since before it was trendy. I self published my first book in 2008, beginning of 2008. Started my podcast in 2009 and have been jumping into everything: YouTube, and social media, and all those things. Because when you’re independently published, you know you have to do it yourself.

But I think what’s changed in publishing over the last decade is publishers want authors who can do this stuff and who are willing to put themselves out there. Because book marketing has increasingly gone online, and of course there are cultural things in the world right now that are changing things to be even more online.

So I think because I had to early on, I’ve kind of turned that into wanting to do it over time. In fact, I started another podcast, Books and Travel. I’ve started doing more live video. So I think it’s always changing it up, trying new things, pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. Because at the end of the day we’re writers, but we can only have this living if people find and buy our books. So it’s an important part of the process.

Marion: And that’s just such an important last sentence there. They’ve got to be able to find us. But authors ask me all the time, “How broad should a platform be?” Do you advise people to start that author platform right away as they begin? As you said, you like it. You found that you had to do it if … Anyone who’s self published knows that you’ve got to do it. I self published a book after being published by three of the biggest publishers in the world. I tried it as an experiment, and it worked beautifully. Then I took it to market, and then we sold it in an auction to a mass market publisher.

So, I too feel the imperative, the definite need to learn how to promote oneself. Do you tell new authors, “Start yourself an online profile now. Do it any way you can”? What’s your best advice there?

Joanna: Well, I think it really depends where you are on your writing project. Because as you know, with memoir, what you start out with writing can turn into something completely different. So if someone comes to me and they haven’t even finished a first draft of whatever genre they’re writing, I would generally say, “Just hang on a minute. Don’t jump into making YouTube videos, or starting a podcast, or blogging right now.” Because you don’t necessarily know what that’s going to be in the future.

I know someone who wrote a memoir about Hawaii, and she has been blogging about Hawaii for a long time. So that kind of naturally worked. I mean, maybe if you know it’s set in a certain place you could post pictures on Instagram or something like that, which is not a massive commitment, but starting a website, and a blog, or a podcast like this, you know how much work it is. It’s not something to go into without much of a clue of what you want to achieve.

So I think the definition of platform can be so varied now. What I would say is the most important thing that I have realized over the last decade is having an email list. This is the best way to sell books. I would suggest that at least if you have a book that’s with an editor so you know what’s going on, maybe you know the title, then having at least a website with an email list gathering forum … even something as basic as that so that whenever you … Or you can update all your social media platforms to point at that page. That would be the very basics.

Then the next step would be, “Okay, what do I love consuming?” So, as you said, I started podcasting a long time ago before it was even called podcasting. But I knew that I enjoyed listening to audio. So it was very natural for me to move into audio because I enjoy listening to it.

People listening, whatever you enjoy. I mean, presumably you enjoy listening to podcasts; that’s why you’re here. So maybe podcasting is a good route, but it is a commitment. So if you’re just starting out with a book, I would say pitch podcasters to go on their show. Like you said, you came on my show. I’m coming on your show. And often you need to pitch well in advance.

My own show is booked six months in advance these days, and the bigger shows are all going to be booked a long time. So make sure you’re connecting with people, making relationships, and then pitching well in advance with the topic of your book and an interesting angle that that person will want to do. It’s a bit like pitching for any kind of media. You have to have a story beyond, “I’ve written a book.”

Marion: Mm-hmm (affirmative), absolutely. It’s so deeply important to be able to do that pitch, that one sentence, “What is this about, and why am I a value to you on that show?” So, when we pitch you, when I pitch you to myself, I always try to figure out which of the many people, the many writers, the many professionals you are I’m most interesting in talking to. It’s almost as if I want to say, “Joanna, I’m going to press button number nine now, and I want to talk to that person.”

It makes me really say out loud … I mean, to say you’re diverse is one of the great, wild understatements. I’m sure that any aging in place publishing executive would tell any aspiring young writer to, “Stick to your knitting, young woman.” You know, master one genre, write the hell out of it, forget the fantasy, the thriller, the romance. So either you never got that memo or you read it and laughed it off and like lit some cigars with it or something. I don’t know, but how did you ignore that perfectly dreadful advice? To put a cork in your creativity and just do one thing.

Joanna: As you say, I have not had a career in a traditional publishing world. I ran my own businesses before I was a full-time writer. So I’ve pretty much always been the type of person who will go and do stuff and not ask permission. Permission is something I’m not that interested in. We’re very lucky to live at a time where we have the internet and we can do this stuff. I learned from the early wonderful American authors who were jumping into self publishing on Amazon, and when I realized that you could publish your own book … And I say independently published because I work with a lot of freelancers, professional editors, and designers, and stuff. So I’ve got a business. But so self publishing it, I don’t do it all myself.

But the fact is, you have to reach out and do this. When you get your book onto Amazon you realize, “Wow, I can write all these different things.” I also always intended to leave my job, and when you think about a career … I’m 45 right now. I want to be doing this for the rest of my life, and there is absolutely not way I want to write in one genre forever. I mean, it’s creatively boring. And also, you don’t know what’s going to hit.

I have in my fiction area, I have three series right now. The ARKANE thriller series, the A Dark Fantasy series, and a crime series, plus some stand-alones. They’re all different ways into my world, and that’s what I want you to think as a creator is, “How do I get people into my world, and then once they arrive in my world what might they like?”

There are people listening who might be interested in my fiction, but most people probably won’t be. Some people might like to try my podcast. You know, there’s lots of different things that people would like, and you have to, I think. It’s fun to do it from my perspective, but also from the reader perspective, “What are the different ways in?” And if you’re only writing one genre, and then that genre is not popular, then it’s not great. And also as a business model, if you only have one book, or three books, or even five books, you’re not going to make decent money. And for me, this has always been a business. Yes, I’m an artist, I’m a creative, I’m a writer. I’m also a businesswoman. So I like to make money, and to me that diversity helps.

Marion: I think that that’s the thing that I find most people just kind of stop in their tracks when I say to them, “At a certain point, your book becomes a widget. You have to be able to sell it. It’s got to go to the market. Yes, it’s your beloved piece of creativity. Yes, it comes from your voice. But at a certain point, you have to understand that a publisher only makes something if it sells,” and you can make it yourself, but it still has to sell.

So there’s that understanding of the business aspect of it. I think there’s also … The word agility comes into mind as we have this conversation. A certain agility that writers have to have and maintain. Because it’s too easy to say to ourselves, if we write in different genres, “Oh, I’m overextended,” or, “Oh, my platform is too big.” I’ve written for newspapers and magazines. I’ve written screenplays, poetry, fiction, short stories, memoir. I haven’t published in all those genres, but I’ve been informed by writing in all of those different genres on how to write.

I think it’s really important to work on that agility. So how do you feed that, though? I have my own theories about how you keep that sort of multifaceted interests alive. What about you? You say it’s a lot about what people want to read, but within your own quiet self, what are you saying to yourself each day?

Joanna: It’s a big creative question, but I think it is about saying yes to tuning into what you’re interested in and not denying that interest. For example, I love cathedrals, and I love holy relics, and I love … A lot of my work has religious history as underpinning the research for the books. And when I travel then I’m visiting ancient sites, and I’m writing stories that are inspired by those things that I love.

But what’s interesting, I think, I spent 13 years as an IT consultant which was not creative at all, and I almost had to relearn the skill of identifying what I was interested in. But once you can tune into that, once you realize where your eyes go in a bookstore or you’re like, “Okay, I want to look at that. That’s what I love.” Then you just double down on what you love.

And so what I do, I literally have about 17 different novels at the moment that are on my list, and I keep changing them around as to which one I’m going to write next. Because as the ideas come, you have to have somewhere to put them. But it’s saying, “Yes, I’m going to do that, and I’m going to do that, and I’m going to do that.” I can’t do it all at once, but I can work on it slowly and steadily over time.

And then the one that I write first … So for example, I moved to Bath. I live in in the Southwest of England in the Roman city of Bath. When we moved here from London, I was very discombobulated. It’s a very different place, and I couldn’t work out how I could live in such a place that was quite different to London. And so I ended up writing Map of Shadows. This was also when Brexit was happening.

So I ended up writing a dark fantasy book about a split portal world where the border was an issue. So it was everything I was going through into a novel, a sort of dark thriller fantasy novel, and through that it’s so interesting now. Because I look at the book and go, “Wow, okay. I can see the themes. Probably no one else can,” but writing is a way that I deal with my life and the world. So saying yes and noticing your creative prompts and the things you’re interested in, those are the ways I think to stay creative.

Marion: I think it’s such a wonderful thing to remember, that great Picasso quote about how he spent all of his adulthood trying to remember how to draw like a child. I think so much about when my child was young, and she had an imaginary friend with whom she processed everything. Everything went through him. In other words, she took … When a friend of mine was getting divorced, then he was getting divorced. When the dog died, he had a dog that died.

And she told us her version of his life, but I could hear the processing. And so many times I think of my own writing life as in my imaginary friend with whom I process, you know, this thing of COVID, this thing of isolation. I just wrote a piece about that. This thing of COVID. This thing of reaching out and sort of mapping the people we love as dots on a map suddenly, thinking of them as they’re spread out all over the place and mapping our friendships and our relations. You know, this idea of what we’re processing being what we then take on and write is a very permission driven personal philosophy.

I remember that pipeline that my daughter had to her imaginary friend, and I spend my entire adult writing life just trying to write with mine. So I love that. I love that idea. So you write dark fantasy, you write action, adventure, thrillers. You also write sweet contemporary romance with your mother, and this actually kind of makes me weep to consider. And I’m probably overdoing it, but writing with your mother seems like one of those undefined intimacies through which there can be nothing but wonder, really. Or am I just completely mad, and is it really like a plotline for a horror movie to write with your own mother?

Joanna: Well, there is a story. There is a story here, Marion, you will love. Okay, so I wrote-

Marion: Good.

Joanna: … three, three sweet romance books with my mum. Basically a few years back, you know this happens in your family, somebody says, “Oh, I’m going to write a book one day,” and you’re like, “Yeah, yeah. Great. Fantastic. Let me know when you do.” Because you just know that most people don’t.

Marion: Yep.

Joanna: My mum actually handed me a 100,000 word draft a couple of years later, and I went, “Okay, then. I will help you with this,” and basically I ended up, you know, doing more than editing. I ended up as a co-writer. And through the process of three books, I helped her develop her voice, and I learned a lot about editing and a lot about respecting different voices. We had a lot of honest conversations. We’re very good friends, me and my mum, but there were certainly some moments where we were driving each other mad.

It was creatively very difficult because I am not a sweet romance girl, you might have noticed. I like graveyards. I like dark things. My favorite book is Stephen King’s The Stand. It was one of those things where I went into help my mum start a new career in her late 60s, and she’s actually writing book five now. We decided to part ways on co-writing. Because at the end of the day, and I think actually this is really good because it enabled me. I was getting very angry and frustrated, and the feeling that I had was similar to the feeling I had at my day job towards the end.

When you are angry and frustrated, there is something that is wrong. I said to my mum, “I don’t want to be angry and frustrated, and I think it’s because I’m doing work … It’s work. I don’t enjoy sweet romance. This is not my genre.” So we had a really good honest conversation, and we parted ways. And I still help her with publishing, but she now does the writing. So yes. That’s what happened.

So I would say if anyone wants to co-write, and I’ve co-written with other writers, it is a very powerful experience. But it can also be incredibly difficult creatively. Because what we were talking about before, that tuning into what you love, you then have to respect someone else’s opinion. And if you are a bit of a control freak like me, you’re going to struggle. So I would say that even though I’m not writing off co-writing entirely, it is not something I am doing right now, and I’m doubling down on my own interests which are mainly thrillers and dark fantasy.

Marion: I love that story, and yes twice I’ve worked with co-writers, and it was one of the greatest mirrors I ever got to look in. And for exactly the reasons that you just pointed out. Because I wrote a book about forensic science, I got to spend two years behind the scenes in the world of forensic science, and go to autopsies, and everything, crime scenes, blah, blah, blah.

Joanna: That is very cool.

Marion: Oh, it was so cool, and we’ll talk about it offline anytime you want. But it also led me to that honest shaping of my own voice more quickly than anything else has ever done. Because to hear someone else’s and to have that very uncomfortable feeling like someone was crossing into your lane. That’s what it always felt like to me, like we were driving together at 60 miles an hour in separate cars. And every once in a while you’d be crossing into my lane, and I’d be like, “Ah, no! No, no. We can’t say it that way.”

And he had every right because he is one of the leading forensic pathologists in the world. He knows the stuff, but his writing skills were very different than mine. And I think it’s a great experience to take on because it develops your voice very quickly. You get very defensive about what is trying to be said. You get very clear about the way you want to say it, and those are moments to pay attention to as a writer. Because voice is by far and away the hardest thing to describe. It’s the hardest thing to teach, and it’s right there with you if someone else tries to come into your lane, you know? So I wish your mother the best with her romances. I love that story. I love that you parted ways and she’s on her fifth book. It’s fantastic.

Joanna: Yeah, and it’s … I also think the co-writing experience and anything that challenges you and pushes you out of your comfort zone makes you a better writer. And so often when people say in their early books, “Oh, how do I find my voice?” The answer is write more books. I think I found my voice in my fifth novel, Desecration, and that is where I really learned about my themes, and the things I wanted to talk about, and as you say, the way we write. That can be diluted with co-writing, but it also helps us hone that down. For all of us, I think we want to become a better writer and so experimentation is really part of that.

Marion: Yes, it absolutely is. And so is discipline. So let’s talk a bit about discipline. You talked about having the 17 novels that you want to write, and how you pick, and how you make the discernment which one you’re going to do next, and it’s okay to have this list — you have 17 books that you want to write — but discipline. Can you just talk a little bit about your practice, about your day, about how you get to the desk and what keeps you there?

Joanna: Yeah, sure. I never think of myself as very disciplined. I think that I love my work, and so you kind of can’t keep me away. I do work all the time; I love it. My day is I’m generally a morning person, but the whole coronavirus pandemic thing has changed things up a little. Which again, is good. It’s shaken my routine. My previous routine was to be at the writing café 7:00AM, local place I go to do a few hours, say two and a half three hours, then go and do some exercise. Then after lunch, I do all of my business stuff: marketing stuff, everything like that.

At the moment, I’m actually doing a lot more writing and editing in the afternoon which is interesting, and sometimes creation and admin stuff in the morning because it’s also when I go walking with my husband. So things have really shifted, but the important aspect is creating something new in the world everyday. And for me, that is writing, working on my books. I’m working on Map of the Impossible right now, which is the third in my Matt Walker trilogy. I am working on a course actually on co-writing with one of my other co-writers, J Thorn. So by creating those videos, that’s going to be something else in the world that brings in money, and right is teach. You’re a teacher. That’s what we do. It’s one of our income streams.

Then I do marketing. So this interview. I’ve got another interview tomorrow. So most days I’ll do interviews for my own podcast or for other people’s podcasts. I might write a blog post or make a video. I’ll check into … I will literally check into Facebook, and Twitter, and Instagram once or twice. It might look like I’m there a lot, but my tip is Buffer app. If people don’t know about scheduling social media, then I use Buffer to schedule a lot of that. So I’m not distracting myself a lot there. I’m mainly focusing on the creation side.

And then of course every we’re … Towards the end of the month as we record this, I’ll then spend like a day doing admin accounting. All the things we have to do, but the main thing to come back to is that everyday there is some block of time that is for creation. The other tip I’d say is I schedule everything on Google Calendar. Even my breaks. And also time with my husband, time with my family, and my work. So I’ll, say, I’ll be working on Map of the Impossible. I’ll make sure I turn up at my desk at that time, do the work. So I guess you could say I’m disciplined in that I manage my time blocks like that, but it doesn’t feel like I’m forcing myself. I feel like this is what I want to do with my life, and I’m so lucky, and I just want to do it.

Marion: Gosh, I just totally agree with everything you just said. I have everything; I call it my grid. I live on a grid. It even says, “Indoor bike, 3:00PM.” It says, “Walk dog,” at certain points.

Joanna: Yeah, me too.

Marion: It says, “Pay bills.” 8:30 AM on Fridays it’s pay the bills. I, too, work best in the morning. I believe in mapping it all out. It doesn’t feel like discipline either. It feels like when I’m being creative I don’t have to worry about the bills. I don’t have to worry about the call to the whatever. Of course life happens, but then you just have to take it. The dog has to go to the vet, of course you make the exception. I completely agree with you.

And it allows for that creativity. So for that creativity, this new site you started, Books and Travel, it’s a gorgeous piece of work that seems to promote the idea that there are books that remain with us forever, that spark our imagination, that echo down the years of our lives. I was just so … I felt like I was climbing into a hammock or riding on a magic carpet when I got onto Books and Travel because it confirms for me what I’ve believed. I have books that have formed my whole life, that have literally helped me make decisions. And I don’t mean self help books, I mean novels.

Can you name a few books for you that have inspired this Books and Travel? Actually, give us a little background on the Books and Travel, and then maybe name a few books that inspired you to this book avid life of yours.

Joanna: Well, thank you for mentioning it. Basically, about 18 months ago I felt like … The Creative Penn Podcast was coming up to a decade, and I felt I needed another creative project, an audio project, and in fact it’s funny because I’m kind of writing a travel memoir as I podcast.

So I knew that I wanted to write about my travels, and for me traveling is the lifeblood of my creativity. I’ve, you know … My mum took us to Africa when I was eight years old, and so some of my first memories are of that. That sort of experience has shaped my entire life, and being in lockdown is very difficult because I really want to be out there experiencing the world. It’s what just fuels me.

When I was thinking about, “What can I do with a podcast that will last a long time?” And this is a tip for everyone for marketing. Everything you build online compounds, and I’m where I am with my Creative Penn business because I’ve been doing this a decade. I thought, “What do I want to be in 10 years time for my fiction? What will underpin my fiction world, my fiction ecosystem?” And I thought, “Well, books and travel. I want to talk to people about their travels and their books,” and I want to talk about the things that have inspired me and also what inspired each of my books as I write them.

One example of a book that still lives with me everyday, I have it on the shelf, but is The Source by James Michener. Have you read that?

Marion: Mm-hmm. Yes, of course

Joanna: Yes, it-

Marion: Yes.

Joanna: Yeah, so wonderful, big, chunky book about the history of Israel told over generations. I’ve been going to Israel since I was about 15. I’ve worked out there at the charity. So when I read Michener’s book, and the depth of history in the book, and the stories that come through it, that book still shapes me. Now, I wouldn’t say that’s a thriller. It’s a historical epic novel, but that, the idea of taking a place, looking at the history of a place, and turning that into a story about a person who was in that place? That is still what shaped pretty much all of my books. Particularly my ARKANE series where my protagonist is half-Israeli. And I write a lot about Jewish history, Christian history. So I love delving into it that way.

Then I guess there’s … There are so many books. That’s kind of why I wanted to do the show. So that I could talk about them and essentially make the books behind the research we do as novelists, and potentially as memoirists, bring those to life and attract people who want to travel in their minds, even if they can’t go there in person.

I also share some of my own background doing personal shows as well as interviews. I’m just finding it very rewarding, but I guess similar to writing memoir, I don’t really know where it’s going yet. It’s only a year old as we speak, and I’m giving it a couple of years, like three years, before I try to turn that into any particular physical book, for example.

Marion: It’s fascinating. And as I wrap this up, I’m going to ask you the most dangerous question of all. Because goodness only knows what the answer to this is, but, “What’s next?”

Joanna: Well, it’s funny. Because it’s great. I do have on the wall, I have just come up with two book titles in the last couple of days. So I do know the next two novels I’m writing. Which I’ll do by the end of the year. Unfortunately, I’m not going to announce them on this show. Because I-

Marion: No, no. That’s okay.

Joanna: … haven’t announced them on my own show, but it’s … What’s nice is that I now know. I’ve been having these … I went to Amsterdam about 18 months ago, and we were in Portugal. And I knew that somehow these two would link. When we were in Amsterdam, there was a … We went to the Portuguese synagogue there, and I was like, “What is a Portuguese synagogue doing in Amsterdam?” And we also found this book called Jewish Pirates of the Caribbean. And I was like, “Oh my goodness. That is just brilliant. I have to read this book.”

So what I learned between Amsterdam and Portugal has suddenly come into my head as what the plot will be, and that will be my next ARKANE book, number 11 in the series. So that will be the next book after Map of the Impossible, but I think the lovely thing with being an independent writer for me is I don’t ask permission to publish, either. I just write books, work with my editor, and put them in the world. So it’s actually quite a fast process.

Marion: That’s the best advice you could give people: write books and put them in the world. Thank you, Joanna. It’s just been wonderful talking to you. I cannot wait for the next time we get to cross paths, and when we get released from this COVID lockdown I hope I can buy you a cup of tea in Bath. I would love to do that.

Joanna: Aw, well thanks so much for having me on the show, Marion. That was great.

Marion: You’re welcome. The author is Joanna Penn. Get her books wherever books are sold. Watch her on YouTube. Listen to her podcasts. In all, see everything she does at The Creative Penn dot com. I’m Marion Roach Smith, and you’ve been listening to QWERTY. Subscribe wherever podcasts are available. QWERTY is produced by OverIt Studios in Albany, New York. Reach them at Over It Studios dot com. Our producer is Adam Claremont. Our assistant is Lorna Bailey. Want more on the art and work of writing? Vision MarionRoach.com, and take a class with me. And thanks for listening. And don’t forget to subscribe to QWERTY and listen to it wherever you go.

Photo credit: Mim Saxl, Oxford photographer.