HOW TO ENTER THE young adult market and thrive — not merely survive — that unique publishing experience? Many of my friends and colleagues have plunged into it, all with varying success. Much like the children’s market, or the market for memoir, the Young Adult — or YA market — is its own beast, and navigating it requires a real understanding of that market, how it works and what the readers want — and don’t want. Perhaps there is no one better than writer Sarah Enni to take us into the young adult publishing market. Read along, and listen in, as we discuss this on this episode of the QWERTY podcast.
Today my guest is young adult novelist and writer Sarah. She has a YA novel out and is the host of a podcast for writers, as well as the host of a mini series podcast on publishing. So her expertise is not only writing, but how to enter the young adult market in pubishing and thrive – note merely survive. Welcome Sarah.
Sarah: Oh, I’m so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Marion: You’re just so welcome. And as I said in the intro, you’ve published a YA novel called Tell Me Everything out by Scholastic, but let’s give people a little bit of context here. The young adult market, or YA market as it’s called, is aimed at kids age like 12 to 18. Most YA protagonists are pretty much in those ranges of age and the story is mostly told through their eyes. But amid a struggling industry that is publishing, the number of YA titles published has more than doubled recently and that’s interesting, but here’s a really curious detail: Many of the readers are adults, so let’s talk about this. First of all, are you a YA reader?
Sarah: Yes. Yes, I very much am. So I came to young adult in about 2008 or 2009 which is true for a lot of people. I had just left college and I was kind of rediscovering the joy of writing and I found, like many other people, Twilight and The Hunger Games and tons of other writers like Sarah Czar, Gail Foreman, JD Nelson. So I was and am a huge young adult reader. I’m sure you would also encourage other people who write in certain categories to read widely in those categories. So yeah, I’m reading tons of stuff for teens.
Marion: It seems to me that every writer I know has a period in their early adulthood when they take on the topic of domesticity. Lots of my friends who are novelists, they start in a relationship where they get married and suddenly they’re writing about cooking and they’re writing about navigating that new space. Then as they have kids, they start crafting children’s books. It’s inevitable. Every new parent I know who’s a writer, it’s like, “Oh, I’ve got a kid’s book,” but this topic of adolescence, that creepy, crawly time of our life when nothing makes sense is obviously to be written by adults. I mean obviously adolescents aren’t writing these books, but there’s this space that we need to have from adolescents so that it not only makes a little more sense, but it has some of that real… Well, it has an expertise that you have to bring to it. It has to have that discernment, I guess is the word I’m looking for. So what was the moment as a writer when you realize that you had, well, discernment and that you could actually have something to say about that imponderable period of life?
Sarah: I love this question so much and by the way, this is a great question to come from a memoir writer I think. The reason I bring up that fact in particular is because it’s not that I didn’t feel like I had something to say about adolescents. But the curious thing about young adult, and the thing that we go back and forth with about this category, is what makes a young adult novel, a young adult novel because as you know, of course, many adults write about teenagers or about their teenage self, but kind of indisputably those books are for adults. They really are sort of taking the adult lens and perspective of life and applying it to that age. What comes to mind is a recent novel by Rufi Thorpe called The Knockout Queen. It’s about teenagers, but it’s from the point of view of a protagonist that’s grown up, so it’s looking back with perspective.
I would say the reason I started writing young adult is because I was freshly out of being one myself, being a teenager… I started writing when I was 23, so I was still kind of a young adult and I wanted to figure out what it meant and what I felt and what was this odd period of transcendent where you… When you’re a young adult, you’re discovering what obsesses you for the first time and you don’t know why and you don’t know what you’re going to do with it, but you’re just swept up in a lot of the things that are propelling the rest of your life, like falling in love with the first time. Why am I falling in love with this person? Why am I having these feelings? Why am I obsessed with this band? Or why do I want to go on a road trip to this destination? You’re just sort of self interrogating for the first time and it’s very rich.
The thing about young adult novels that I’d say is it’s really not prescriptive. It’s not looking back and trying to put a perspective on a teen experience. When you’re writing a young adult novel, you are writing to that audience so you want to be really in the moment. That’s why first person present is very common in young adult books. It’s not really about analyzing that experience, it’s about embodying the present intensity and vibrancy of that age group, of people who are living that time. I don’t know if you’ve hung out with a young adult recently, but teenagers are very present and in the moment and they are kind of raw nerves and that’s exciting from a storytelling point of view.
Marion: It is exciting from a storytelling point of view and yes, I have a daughter who’s now 24, but I vividly remember the questions that got churned and the mirror that got held up to me to think about my own… God, I rethought everything from sexuality to morality to I felt about money, to how I felt about my own body and I envied her, the time she was growing up in, but I didn’t envy her the experience because it is such a churn.
I love the idea that the portal to self-discovery is there. I speak about that with memoir writers all the time, but had never occurred to me that the young adult writer is successfully reentering that portal in a way that allows you to have a perspective that’s not prescriptive. What a great absolute dictum, a little bit of advice. We could needlepoint it onto something for people who want to write in this genre because don’t be prescriptive.
Of course, you can’t be speaking to us from the pulpit because that’s not who the character is of course.
Sarah: No, and that’s death for a young adult novel. If you come in feeling like you want to tell kids how to live or this is the grand thing you need. Kids have zero patience for that. They are all just really engaged in their own journey and they want you to give them perspective and treat them like the mature growing individuals they are, and I’m sure you see this with, like you’re saying, people become parents and then everyone thinks they have a picture book and it’s all about like wanting to teach a kid not to make a mess or something. It’s like, “No, the best picture books are like the Jon Klassen’s and Carson Ellis’s of the world are just exploring and embracing the wonder of the world. That’s what young readers care about.
Marion: That’s such a good point. So, Tell Me Everything takes on the idea of having the courage to stand out and that’s a huge issue at any age and one that is terrifying of course for young adults. It’s terrifying for all of us, but since my listeners are writers, let’s take them through the process, a bit of mapping out such a book, so they can learn how to enter the young adult market. How about research? Did you take on… Well, for instance, you take on the idea of creating an app and I know your age because you just told us you graduated from college somewhere to 2008, 2009 so app creation was being done, but not perhaps to the extent that you were paying attention to it. Did you have to go back and research how to create an app to write this book?
Sarah: Wow, absolutely not. I wish to god I knew how to make an app, then I’d probably be making a lot more money, but it’s so funny because I Tell Me Everything is about a 15 year old and actually an interesting side note is books about 15 year olds are actually becoming quite rare. When you’re writing a young adult book, often your protagonist will be minimum 16 years old and once you start going below 16 it often becomes a middle grade book, which is more appropriate for kids ages nine to 12, but there is kind of a desert for 13 to 15 year olds. Anyway, my protagonist is 15 years old, she’s a sophomore and she’s dealing with being an artist and being scared of showing her work, so she posts her work on an anonymous app.
I’m just flooded with social media. As many of your listeners can relate to, as an author I’m on Twitter, I’m on Instagram, I’m on Facebook and not necessarily voluntarily. There’s a lot that I don’t like about it. I as a person, am very preoccupied with Silicon Valley and like hating it and the hating a lot of the attitude that comes out of that. I grew up in San Jose, so it’s like a personal feeling for me. Anyway, so I was thinking about what is the kind of app that I would want to participate in? And the app and the book is not only anonymous, but you only see things that are posted by people within five miles of you and everything gets erased on every Sunday night.
It’s called Veil and it was really fun to be like, “What’s an app that I would want to use right now?” and those things like geographic proximity and anonymity and all the questions that raises, it was really fascinating to me. So that’s how I did it. I was like, “What would I want to engage with?” I’ll be honest with you, what happened with Ivy, my main character, and her journey of artistic expression was like… I was writing that. I wrote it on… Oh my gosh, what’s the word I want? I wrote it knowing it was going to be published. So I was on deadline, coming up against the production schedule. So me writing about an artist having an existential breakdown about her art being in the world couldn’t have been more autobiographical. So that’s the real truth.
Marion: I really love how creativity begets a life that begets pressure on our creativity. That is a really nice little snake eating its own tail kind of moment in a creative’s life.
Sarah: An ouroboros of pure anxiety.
Marion: There we go. Next time I have a deadline, I think I’ll write about the deadline and then I’ll have met the deadline.
Sarah: I recommend it.
Marion: Yeah, no, obviously it’s very, very creatively successful for you. That’s just great, I love that. So we’re not taking notes as kids unless we’re weird. As a kid I was not walking around with a notebook in my back pocket, but I talk with writers all the time about how we recreate our adolescents, our dialogue. Did you find that it was easily accessible? Did you speak to other adolescents? How do you get back into the head? Give us a portal entering clue to getting back into that perspective?
Sarah: Yeah. I’m going to give you a more specific answer in a second, but I just want to be upfront by saying the real truth of it and I think a lot of YA writers would say the same, is that I am 34 years old, but I just don’t find it difficult, I don’t feel like I’ve grown past adolescence in some kind of fundamental way. I feel very connected to the person I was when I graduated from high school and I constantly go back to that person and check in with her to see like, “Am I living the life that I envisioned? Am I living up to the grand dreams I had at that time?” and if I feel connected to her still, I think I’m on the right path. So that’s part of what draws me to this category.
Also, very specifically, for writing Tell Me Everything I set it in a town called Sudden Cove, which is very obviously Santa Cruz, California and as I mentioned, I grew up in San Jose. That’s where I spent all my high school years, which is very close to Santa Cruz and my friends and I would skip school and go to Santa Cruz. Like every weekend was on the beaches at Santa Cruz, that was a very special, magical place for me. So when I started writing Tell Me Everything and another book, the current book, manuscript I’m working on right now, which takes place in the same town, I was living in Washington D.C. at the time, and I was just desperate for home and for that feeling I had when I was a teen, I was working in a cubicle. It was not the best of times.
So I really wanted to revisit that setting in that place and those feelings. So setting is probably the biggest thing for me as a writer and that was very key to transporting, kind of getting into Ivy’s head and who would live there. For me setting is so pivotal in how are the characters interacting with the space around them and what does that mean about each other? What’s the tone of the place, the vibe of the place? Santa Cruz is capital V vibe, so it was easy to get into that head space.
Marion: You’re very generous with that answer when you talk about how you keep this 15-year-old version of yourself close and check back in with her. An important thing to remember when learning how to enter the young adult market. I’m not sure everyone is comfortable with that, but I think it’s such a dearly needed and valued tool in one’s toolbox as a writer, but also as a person she’s worth checking back in with. I was so struck in your promotional material, how generous you were with how personal some of your motivation has been for your career. You’ve got this fabulous podcast and in the promotional material you talk about the beginnings of it. I hope you won’t mind me bringing it up, but how a career, as you just said, the cubicle, you weren’t too pleased with as well as a relationship that wasn’t really working out is credited in the PR material that you send out for this podcast that allows us to get into the head of the storyteller. So let’s talk about that for a minute. How do you go in and tap the bad for the good?
Sarah: You’re right and what you’re very kindly dancing around is the fact that I got divorced and that led to a lot of what I do in my life now. I’ve been writing books since 2009, but the podcast was like every big thing, it was on the back burner of my mind growing, growing. I was like, “Oh, I want to be Nina Totenberg and work for NPR. Oh, I love podcasts. How do I get into this audio space?”
So once my marriage dissipated and I decided to move from D.C. to Los Angeles, I was like, “I think I just have to do it myself,” and I loved the one on one interviews, Fresh Air with Terry Gross, who doesn’t love that, podcasts like yours, which are just conversations with people that are experts in their field. So I decided to reach out to the people that I know and knew from Twitter and from book world and see if they’d sit down and talk to me and that’s how my podcast first draft started. Wow, I’m losing the thread of your question, but… Oh, being personal and that being kind of a way in for…
Marion: Yeah, the bad. How do you get the good from out of the bad because we all have had bad and you make lemonade, but you really did and that’s interesting.
Sarah: Yeah, and I appreciate the question because I don’t want to be frustrating in my answer because what comes to mind first is that I don’t know how to do it any other way and I know that’s frustrating, but I don’t…
Marion: No, in journalism we say, “Go with what you’ve got.” I was raised with The New York Times and it’s “go with what you got.” It’s three o’clock, what do you got? And we go with what you… Not did we get it wrong, but it’s three o’clock, it’s due. So in many ways it’s not frustrating, it’s just practical, but I think a lot of people, again find, “Oh, well how could I do that? I’ve got this job I don’t like in a cubicle and in a marriage that isn’t working out,” but what you’re saying is you had Nina Totenberg, the legal affairs correspondent for NPR. She covers politics and the Supreme Court and that’s a hell of a role model, right?
Sarah: Oh my gosh, yes.
Marion: I think what I’m just trying to get at is we look out and we say, “Who’s doing what and how do I get there?” Have you got other examples of that, of people who you looked to along with the great and amazing Nina Totenberg, who I also adore, who kept your sights up, other people like that?
Sarah: Absolutely. Terry Gross, who is… I’m not trying to put myself in the same world as Nina Totenberg or Terry Gross but they’re fantastic, and I was a journalist. I still consider myself a journalist and one of the things I was better at was interviewing. So that was part of what I brought to it.
When I was in the middle of that really, really hard time I was escaping into the world of podcasts, listening to Marc Maron, Pete Holmes, Terry Gross, all these people who are fantastic interviewers and I think the key of that frustrating part of my answer is I always have this little voice in my head that’s like, “Well, I can do this. I’m just as good as these people are,” and I don’t know where that comes from and I don’t know if it’s like advisable or what, but it really did bolster my confidence and made me feel like, “Well, I can try. At the very least I can try and if it doesn’t work, who cares?”
The other thing is my coping mechanism is work. So it was like, “Well, what am I going to do? Not focus my entire energy on something?” I have a hyper-focus situation, which is how I can write books and do audio and all that stuff, so I just want to attack a problem and it does actually lead back to what we were talking about, getting in touch with my younger self. I’m very okay with some adolescent type behaviors that I have and let stick around, and by that I mean getting obsessed with something, getting really preoccupied with something, researching something, arguably too much. I really let myself go there and it was like, “Well, if I’m this obsessed with it, if I’m this obsessed with podcasts and if they’re really getting me through the day, I need to be a part of this. I need to find my way into this.”
I think you would probably say the same thing is pay attention to the signals I think like that, that are coming through and then research the heck out of it. Read everything you can about it, listen to everything you can about it, go to every conference that you can afford to go to about it and then start making something. This is actually the heart of Tell Me Everything. She has kind of a mentor art teacher who says, “Art is hard as you can,” and that came from my own life and something I wrote about my own experience was in the face of getting divorced and upturning my entire life and not selling a book… I came close to selling a book and it didn’t go, right before I got divorced, so in the midst of all that, I was like, “All I can do is create. That’s all I know how to do.”
Marion: Yeah. And thank goodness. The podcast, by the way, is called First Draft and I want to just keep mentioning the name because I know the importance of doing that. The thing that I thought about a lot listening to it, and it’s got 200 and more episodes at this point, which is really admirable and fascinating.
Sarah: Yeah, 250 this week.
Marion: 250 this week. All right.
Sarah: Yeah.
Marion: What I keep thinking about as I was listening to it, was before the time of podcasting, I kept thinking about that essential moment in my own world when I realized that my friends had evolved to being a core group of writers and editors who were invested in my success and whose success I was invested in and that was a big moment for me in my writing life and a big moment in my friendship life and a major turning point in career.
I think what the podcast that you do, what’s really stirred me about it is it provides such access to other writers, kind of smoothing the playing field for those people who don’t have the opportunity to meet working writers and ask them those questions. When I started in the business, you couldn’t get that kind of support anywhere online, on the radio, but you’re giving to people that kind of access and I think that’s how we build our dreams, is by hearing what other people do. Like you said, the Terry Gross, Nina Totenberg, and you’re giving people this.
So then you take it this next step further in your new venture and it’s a miniseries. I love this. It’s like a podcast following a podcast and you call it a mini series. I’ll think of another word for it maybe, but it’s called Track Changes that just began and as I said when we were talking offline before we started recording, it’s like you’ve taken out the two darkest places in the world, adolescents and publishing because Track Changes is all about demystifying the book publishing process. Oh dear god, it takes on everything from getting an agent to what really happens behind the scenes after the book contract to how writers can stay sane. I loved listening to a writer you were talking to you talk about how, “I didn’t even know if I was allowed to call my agent after she became my agent,” and it’s like, “Oh my goodness.”
So like surviving adolescents, surviving publishing is a 50/50 possibility. It can be brutal. So what have you learned so far? First of all, why did you decide to do this mini series? You’ve already got this big one, 250 episodes. What about the industry, the actually how-to part really required or necessitated its own podcast?
Sarah: Yeah, and I really appreciate the question and thank you for all those kind words. Basically, as you say, I’ve been doing First Draft for 250 episodes for about five years now. I started it in 2014 and in those conversations we really do get into it. These are people I’ve known for years or people I get the opportunity to meet by doing the podcast, that’s kind of the selfish side of doing this podcast is that it does allow me to meet peers and people that I really admire.
I felt like, “Oh my gosh, I wish this had been around when I was starting. I’m providing something that’s helping people.” I felt that and then I started doing these mailbag episodes where I answer listener questions and a little bit to my shock the questions I kept getting were like, “How do I write a query letter? How do I find literary agents?” these really basic question and I’m not saying basic in a derogatory way, just like fundamental questions about publishing that I was like, “Hang on a second, if you’re listening to me and Leni Taylor talk or me and Jason Reynolds talk for 90 minutes, but you can’t define what a query is, I’m not serving you correctly. Like then we’re not even using the same vocabulary.” So I just felt like, “Oh, I’m not doing the best service to my audience.”
When I got started in 2009 blogs were it. You could go find anything that you wanted to know about on blogs or Electric Lit or whatever and that is still there. There are still fabulous blogs like Jane Friedman who was a guest on your show. I super recommend everyone listen to that episode of the show.
Marion: Thank you.
Sarah: Yeah, Jane is like the undisputed guru of publishing and all of her stuff is online, but everything is so disparate now. There is so much information, but it’s harder than ever to find and it’s all over the place. So I felt like, “You know what? This hasn’t been done in podcasting, this kind of audio documentary that says, ‘Listen to this, we’re going to give you 10 episodes of a show, where at the end of it you’ll have at least a baseline of knowledge,'” and in my head I was like, “Okay, every new listener to First Draft, I can tell them, ‘Start with these episodes, start with publishing 101 and get through the process and then when you turn to the other longer interviews, you’ll really have a sense of what those people are talking about and you’ll really be able to gain even more from those conversations. Instead of haphazardly piecing things together based on tons of conversations, you’ll be able to kind of craft your own understanding.'”
Marion: Yeah, absolutely. I know that feeling well. We’re talking about, “So when you go to make a pitch you ba-ba-ba,” and the person suddenly is looking at you owl eyed and the word pitch is new. It just is because that person is where you were at another time in your life and that pitch, they are trying desperately to get past the definition of that word and you’ve moved on.
So it’s a real service and you’re right, Jane is a genius. I think the series allows for it to be, as you said, well documented, online in an audio way that we can carry with us and have it explained to us. I agree with your too, the reason we do this is also so you can talk to people, like I can talk to you, I can hear about the YA world. I can call people up and talk to people about any aspect of it and in doing so I’m hoping that your own sense of how to publish well is improving.
So you’re writing something now, you’re looking toward publishing, what adaptation, what changes, what are you doing slightly differently now that you didn’t do for your first YA, for Tell Me Everything. What are you doing now for the next book before the book that you might be able to just pass along as a tip to people as they face their own run up to their next book?
Sarah: Yeah, doing this series, doing Track Changes, I really got the opportunity to interview a lot of literary agents, I interviewed a lot of editors, I even got the chance to talk to someone who works at a warehouse on the phone. I really dove in and there’s a lot of people who are in publishing and who have sometimes published many books who really don’t understand how the industry works and I found out that I was kind of one of them and I learned a ton. I’m so grateful for that and that has made this entire experience worth it.
As far as looking at my own career and how it’s made me reflect on my own experience, I do feel like I’m going to write the books that I write. It hasn’t changed what I think about as far as what’s going to be in my books themselves, but it has made me even more grateful for my agent, the wonderful Sarah Burns of the Gernert Company. It has made me think about the big five in an interesting way. I think doing this Track Changes podcast series has made me look more closely at wonderful independent publishers who are doing fantastic work, who are just as valid and great.
Marion: The big five being the big five publishing firms, so we’re doing that insider thing.
Sarah: I know.
Marion: The big five being the big five publishing firms that we all can name, they include Simon and Schuster and they include Hachette. So you’re looking at the Indies, just wanted to slip that in there, but go ahead.
Sarah: Yes. Thank you for reminding me of that, and this is the reason I started the podcast series. Me, as a person and I would venture to guess that you are this way too, I’m so much more relaxed and less anxious when I just have the information. I’m just a questioner. I want to have all the information and when someone can help me set expectations at a reasonable level, then I’m okay. My agent was great with this, but we run into this all the time with aspiring writers, right, they think they’re going to be able to quit their day job when they sell their first book and it’s like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. No, no, no,” but publishing isn’t great about transparency, so what on earth would lead them to have any other conclusion? There’s nobody telling them about how advances are paid out in four parts and taxes are going to take away half of that and your agent gets a cut.
So it’s difficult for people to contextualize. So I was like, “I really want people to have more information so they can just be calmer and make decisions more out of their artistic heart than misguided kind of business-y thinking that won’t actually get them the results that they want.” And I would say that I’ve been able to reassess, reevaluate, and put my emphasis in places that are just better for my overall kind of career guide than I would have before I started this series. So the books haven’t changed.
Marion: I think that’s wonderful.
Sarah: Yeah, the books haven’t changed, my representation hasn’t changed, but my perspective has changed and I feel a lot less anxiety.
Marion: Sure and that makes perfect sense to me. Years ago I met a man who, he described himself as a therapist for writers, and I remember laughing out loud, he’s a psychiatrist in New York and he has a very lavish life and then I realized why, because he’s got hundreds of clients of people who are trying to make art and he’s also a biographer and he gives guidance. It fascinated me when I realized this is something that should not be done without a good therapist at your elbow and also a good advisor who says, “You’re not going to make a living from this solely. You’re not going to quit your… please don’t quit your job.” Then there’s the good writer’s accountant who reminds us that yes, that the advance is split up, the taxes come out.
So this is terrific advice and as we wrap this up, I cannot ignore the fact that you published a story in what’s now a New York Times bestselling collection. I love the phrase, it’s a villain anthology. I just laughed out loud and I want to just get that in there before we split up because it’s called Because You Love to Hate Me, is the name of the collection and it’s a wild romp through the idea that while heroes want to save the world, villains want to rule it, and I thought, “Oh that’s just irresistible, perfect idea.” You get invited to be part of this collection, a lot of people would like to have such an invitation or were you? How did that happen that you became part of this collection please because that’s another great way to get published?
Sarah: Yes it is and young adult fiction has actually seen a major uptick in these short story collections over the last, I would say, five years, and there’s a lot of fantastic ones out there. This one was put together by Amory who is a book lover and a pop singer and also a book YouTuber. I know she’s working on many projects of her own. She’s so impressive and amazing and I’m friendly with her literary agent, Joanna Volpi at New Leaf Literary, and I’ll be completely frank with you. I got an email from Joe because I think that one of their contributors was no longer able to be a part of the collection and thankfully because of all the work I’ve done in the community and just being friends with Joe and many of her clients, she happened to think of me.
So she sent me an email saying like, “I don’t know, is this something you want to do?” and I was like, “Absolutely, everybody loves villains. This is a fantastic concept,” and then I went for a run and I just came up with the idea and I sat down and wrote it and Amory was really thoughtful in her notes and she’s just great in general. So I was super, super fortunate, but as you know, it really is kind of a result of being in the world for a while and making connections and knowing people and being kind and generous, and then you are often put in a position where people think of you fondly and they’re more likely to think of you when opportunities like that come up. So I was very lucky to be asked.
Marion: Well, and that’s a great place to leave this because I really believe in that community of kindness and the generosity of your podcast is what drew me to your work. So I think those are terrific thoughts to leave people with, the idea that say yes. I know people that have made their way by doing book reviews and step up, write the review. It’s not that you have to do a positive review, it’s that you have to get involved in the community how you can. So you’ve already done that and given us some great tips. Sarah, thank you so much. It was a joy to talk to you and I can’t wait to read what you do next.
Sarah: Thank you. It’s a joy to talk to you too. This is a fantastic podcast. You yourself are very generous as well, so this was a real joy.
Marion: Well, thank you. That’s Sarah Enni, author of the YA novel, Tell Me Everything, and the host of the podcast, First Draft and the podcast mini series, Track Changes. I’m Marion Roach Smith and you’ve been listening to QWERTY. QWERTY is produced by Overit Studios in Albany, New York, reach them at overitstudios dot com Our producer is Adam Claremont. Our assistant is Lorna Bailey. Want more on the art and work of writing? Visit Marionroach.com and take a class with me and thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe to QWERTY and listen to it wherever you go.
