How to Train a Writer’s Eye, With Donny Jackson

KNOWING HOW TO TRAIN a writer’s eye is an essential piece of what every writer needs to know. Donny Jackson has an exquisite eye and he is here to speak to us about that, and much more. Dr. Jackson is an American poet, a veteran showrunner and documentary producer, and an Emmy Award-winning executive producer and director, as well as a clinical psychologist. As a spoken word artist, he has featured at venues throughout the United States. His new book, boy, poems is just out. Listen in and read along as we talk about how to train a writer’s eye. 

Marion: This podcast is for writers. Many of whom have other professional lives that support that writing practice. You hold a PhD in clinical psychology. You’ve been a professor, psychologist, playwright, ghost writer, an actor, critic, executive producer, and director. I don’t think it’s possible to turn off the writer when I’m working at something other than writing. I think that the writer’s eye is always on. But that’s me. What about you? What do you think about how to train a writer’s eye?

Donny: I think I’m a storyteller at my core, so I don’t think that ever gets turned off. Sometimes I turn it down or amplify it, but it’s always there regardless of what I’m doing.

Marion: Yeah. Amplify, I love that. Turn it down or amplify it. So of all those many things that you are, all of them have to have been ignited by education. So I wonder if you can talk to us about your early influences at home and at school and what led to such a breadth of creativity?

Donny: Part of it had to do with just being a shy kid. I wasn’t really good at social stuff. Yeah, that is the truth of it. I was bookish and even before I was in school, I was fascinated by language. My parents always had books open and I don’t remember them ever saying, “Reading is the thing that you should do as a core skill.” But there were always books open. And so I gravitated toward that. And my dad was fond of telling people that I would just read the dictionary. I would just kind of sit and look up words. And I read fairly early at age three and just fell in love with the adventure and the scope of what is possible with words. And then in school, I kind of thrived in that environment because it is very, very reading-based. And since I wasn’t really running around in the playground, I had a lot of reading to do.

Marion: I love the idea of the dictionary and Emily Dickinson used to cut words out of magazines and place them on pages. And I think that individual word study is so much at the heart of a poet. Do you remember any particular, was it all words, was it particular words? Was it something in the dictionary that allowed you to focus in sort of word by word?

Donny: It was really the breadth and the depth of it. It wasn’t a particular class of words. I was just amazed that there were symbols that describe things. And I was just enthralled by the fact that there are names for things that we take for granted and don’t necessarily know the names for, or don’t know how to describe the processes in verbs. And I love the puzzle of it, the problem-solving of it, the adventure of it.

Marion: Well, you must love the adventure because you’ve got the ability also to get up and perform your work. You say you were a shy kid and yet your performance career is quite vast and quite vibrant and will be vibrant again, I suspect after COVID. I remember those smoky coffee house poetry nights from my teens down in Greenwich Village in New York City, but that’s not what you do. And I think a lot of the times people don’t know that when we talk about the new onstage or mid crowd idea of the spoken word. Now we call it spoken word nights instead of poetry readings. And I want people to listen in and listen up when COVID allows and attend some live poetry. So being the ambassador for poetry that you are, what might happen to somebody at a spoken word event?

Donny: I think it’s transformative. I think it’s amazing to be in a space where people get a chance to tell their stories. And we, as a collective audience, get a chance to absorb those stories and relate to them, ideally. And I think everybody should have that experience of seeing both the novice and the veteran honestly excavating their histories in public that way. And that’s how it started. Poetry certainly didn’t start as a written thing, it started as an oral thing. And so we’re really returning to it in the genre of spoken word more than inventing something. But I wish it on everybody, everybody who has been touched by language, which is literally everybody just to see how it feels to them. And again, not everybody will take to it. It’s not something that is a universal in the sense that people like the construction of poems and want to absorb language that way. But I think everyone should give themselves an opportunity to feel that.

Marion: Do you remember your first reading or performance? What was it?

Donny: This was back in the day when they were called poetry readings and not spoken word. And even in college, I was super shy, but at some point there were opportunities to read the work. And I guess there was something in me that knew that there was a narcissist in there hiding, and being able to stand in front of people and get attention for it. Because to be honest, if I was that chronically shy, I’d never would have done it at all, but I did. And this was when you would read off of paper and people would clap. It wasn’t so theatrical then, and that was in college and I was still pretty shy person at that point, still super bookish, but at the University of Maryland, that was the first time I really started reading my work.

Marion: I read in one of your reviews that you’re a dangerous writer. And I happened to read… That same day I was reading in the current issue of The Paris Review. I was reading an interview with Edward Hirsch, the great poet. And he says that, “Poetry partly comes out of the dark underground forces.” And he says that you’re supposed to go where it is physically troubling. And that really resonated with me. And it started making me think about what I had just read about you. Are you a dangerous writer? You talk about being the shy kid, but there’s a narcissist lurking inside, but would you say you’re a dangerous writer and what do we mean when we say that, do you think?

Donny: You’d have to ask Buddy Wakefield who described me-

Marion: I love that quote.

Donny:… that way. And then I love Buddy. He is an astonishingly, beautiful poet, electrified performer, and writer. So it’s certainly a compliment to have been described that way by him. And I think danger in this context is in the eye of the beholder. But what I guess I am willing to say is that I know Buddy didn’t mean this, but I think part of the danger starts with me being willing to ache, me being willing to be in pain in order to convey a certain amount of pain for other people to witness and absorb in some way. I don’t certainly claim to have the answers to anything, frankly. But I think if I can pose difficult questions, perhaps that’s where the danger lies.

Marion: Well, and we’re grateful to it, to the work. You also seem unflinching, a word I much prefer to fearless. It’s not for me to say who’s afraid of what, but I don’t like to say someone’s work is fearless, but I like unflinching a bit. You take on missing black and indigenous women in the Americas, the tragedy in Sri Lanka, church burnings, the Boko Haram kidnappings, Flint and so much more. What first draws your eye to something? We touched on it a little bit there by saying dangerous, unflinching, pain, but what first draws your eye to a topic?

Donny: I think what draws me to it is the empathy of feeling pain, whether it be a building on fire or a shooting or a kidnapping or some other kind of loss. That is the essential part of it, loss. And that’s something that we all find sad or frightening or infuriating. So it really starts with that level of connection to the pain of people that I don’t know. All the things that you’ve described, I don’t know these folks, I haven’t interacted with them, but there’s something about the way their story got to me that literally got to me. It twisted something in my soul and my job, if you will, as a writer that I’ve taken on that job. No one’s assigned it to me, for sure. Perhaps in a greater cosmology, the universe has assigned it to me, but I accept it willingly and excitedly. So I try to turn it back to people who may have a better answer or a solution or additional empathy that can at least provide some comfort to the people who are suffering and all the things that you’ve described, that’s the process for me.

Marion: Well, we certainly see that in your debut collection, boy, poems, it published in 2020, it’s structured in three sections. The I, which focuses on the poetry written from the perspective of someone else, the they, which focuses on living histories and which you narrate from… And you move through these three perspectives. Do you think that’s what you’re talking about now, as you talk about this inhabiting the… Or describing other people, does this point of view shift allow for that kind of examination as we move through this very strikingly dangerous and difficult world right now?

Donny: For me, it does. It does allow me to exercise empathy and I think it does require a commitment to it and a willingness to withstand some of the things that will come to you if you take the perspective of another person. And frankly we’re not taught that well. In schools, we’re not taught listening well, we’re not taught changing perspective well. The way academics are structured is unfortunate on what are called soft skills of listening and being empathic. But I think that’s key to our evolution as a civilization, emphasis on civil. If we don’t empathize, if we don’t try to understand what somebody else is feeling, then it’ll be easier to watch them be in pain. It’ll be easier to cause them pain. It’ll be easier to ignore them.

Marion: Yes.

Donny: And so I insist on trying to understand better or as best I can with my own limitations. And it’s not always comfortable. And Boy as a collection is certainly structured with a lot more emphasis to people in pain than not. There are no explicitly love poems in there, although I do hope there is love to be seen in the work. But yes, as a collection, it’s deliberately pointed at the injustices that we see globally.

Marion: Well, I think that this is what James Baldwin reminds us of when he quotes the Bible and he says that we should go back and do our first work again. And our first work is I think telling our tale better in America, honestly. And if we don’t do this, we’re going to continue to other everybody. And if we do, do a better job of examining and listening and looking at other perspectives. We hold a chance of seeing equality. It feels to me in your work that you feel that as an obligation, that that’s what you’re supposed to be doing. And it certainly comes through in the beautiful portraits if they are portraits, but they feel like portraits to me in which I was able to examine my own inclination toward othering. I have to tell you, it’s very successful in getting us to find our biases and kind of blow them up a bit.

And as I said, it is your first debut collection, and it’s not unnatural for a writer to feel a certain validation when publishing a book, but you’re very successful in many other fields. But did the experience of publishing validate or reinforce some part of your artistic self that your other accomplishments didn’t quite attain?

Donny: I would say yes. I’m not quite sure of validation so much as celebration. I think that I would slightly reframe that. Because as a writer, a lifelong writer, I already feel kind of validated in my ability to do it consistently. Whether I do it well is for other people to say, but I do it quite consistently. I crank out a lot of stuff and I try to make sure that it’s good before I share it with people. But again, it’s not for me to say how it lands. And so being able to put out a book of thoughts called over years and have that be available to other people. For me, it’s a celebration of my legacy. A friend of mine, Shihan, who is one of the co-founders and former host of the Poetry Lounge in Los Angeles. He talks about one’s writing as being part of your legacy, part of what you leave behind.

And I don’t have children and this book and anything that I write is part of that legacy. So, more than being a validation, it really was a celebration, a coming out, quinceanera of my writing. Yeah.

Marion: Yeah. I hope the food was good too. Was it quinceanera? That’s great. I love that. I love the idea that it’s a celebration. It’s a fascinating experience to hold a book against your chest and have it be one with your own name on it. Were you able… Did you do any kind of ritual? Did you… Go on, tell us. Did you throw a quinceanera for your book? Did you celebrate it?

Donny: I did. I had a book release event, where I asked some of my friends to read. And there was an audience and yes, there was food. And it was meant to be a celebration. It was meant to be a party. And I read some stuff from the book as well. And it was a room full of love and not… Obviously as a book release party, it was about me in that sense, but it was really a celebration of language and what language can do, which is why I had other people reading and not my work. Some other poets that I love, because it really was about the celebration of words. And this book was just meant to be another example of what we can all do in our own way.

Marion: Yes. So think back to the kid with the dictionary and tag the guy at the quinceanera celebration of his book and give him a little advice to young poets starting out, particularly young poets of color. I have absolutely no authority there, whatever. So, what would you say to somebody who comes to you as a kid who’s reading the dictionary and wants to be the guy at the bookstore, giving the party for the celebration of his work?

Donny: I start with reminding people, not telling them, because I think inherently we know that we have a story all of us. And a part of my job in giving advice is just reminding people that they do have a story and that it’s worth telling, and that words are only one way of telling that story. You could do it by dancing. You can do it by painting. You can do it by creating a sculpture. So it’s not that words are the only way to tell you a story, but if people are asking me about that genre of storytelling, I just remind them, “You do have a story. It does have value. And if you tell it honestly, it will connect to somebody else.” And I think being as specific as possible is important in that level of honesty, as opposed to trying to be everything to everybody, which honestly never works, is too scattershot. So that is my advice to just never forget that you have a story, never let anybody else deny that you have a story and know that in the telling of it, if you do it honestly, it will connect.

Marion: Yeah. And you do it on so many different platforms. I’ve read you on Tumblr. I’ve listened to you on Apple Music. I follow you on Instagram. So how important is it for you to be multi-platform like this? And are there platforms that you find particularly well suited to poetry?

Donny: I think it’s important for me at least to be diverse, because people receive information in so many different ways now. From social media, to YouTube, to Spotify, to the traditional forms in reading a book, or just looking up poets online through a search engine. And so I think trying to be available to people, I think it’s good to be nimble and to be able to be in these forums. So, yeah, so I am on Spotify and Apple Music and iTunes, and you can buy the book on Amazon. You can buy it from my website. You can listen as well as read because that’s where the people are.

Marion: Well, yes. And it was a joy to sit here and listen to you for the last week, turning it on and off listening again, going back, writing down some phrases. And it allows us to be in the poetry, which is, I guess also what the spoken word experience allows for us. I think it’s wonderful that you’re on all these platforms and I always encourage people to go and have a look at them and get more comfortable with them. So who are you listening to? Who would you recommend that we read right now? It’s a tough world right now. And we’re looking for some understanding. Have you got somebody that you’re kind of talking in your back pocket and taking with you as you go in this COVID crazy journey that is America and the world right now?

Donny: It’s a fantastic question. And before I answer that, just thank you for allowing my work into your life by whatever means you’ve chosen. I really do appreciate it. It’s nice to be heard and seen in that way, because the work is important to me. And so knowing that somebody spent time with it is… I don’t take that for granted. So, thank you for that.

Marion: Oh, you’re welcome. I loved it.

Donny: There are so many gorgeous writers out there. I don’t want to do a disservice by not being able to mention all of them, but one of the things that I do want to say, the writer that I’m most in love with still is Toni Morrison. And she wasn’t known as a poet, but her prose was certainly poetic. And so, I encourage people to spend some time with Toni Morrison novels.

Absolutely, my hero as a poet is Nikki Giovanni to this day. And I don’t write the way I write unless I’m honoring the fact that it started with being a fan of hers. And so I think with decades of a body of work, it’s a joy to spend time with Nikki Giovanni’s work at anytime. But I’ll wrap up with a contemporary, because you did ask me about that. And a friend of mine who is also an astonishingly honest and unsparing in his aim as a poet, Javon Johnson has a new book out. And so I definitely encourage people to check that out, as well as Rudy Francisco, who is an amazing writer and a beautifully available writer. He is somebody that you can immediately feel comforted by. Even if he’s talking about uncomfortable things, Rudy has a gift that I don’t have and that ability. So I encourage people to check out Rudy as well. And Yesika Salgado, I think is a gorgeous writer and has multiple books out there that I think people should check out. But anyway, I’ll leave. I’ll leave you there.

Marion: Well, I will link to all of them. And I thank you so much for that generosity, for the generosity of your work and for coming along today. It’s just been a joy to talk to you, and I wish you all the best. I hope that you get back on the stage soon and that we’re able to continue to hear your voice wherever we want to. So thanks a million. I really appreciate it, Donny.

Donny: Marion, this has been a pleasure. I thank you for making it painless.

Marion: Donny’s work can be found at his website, Donny Jackson poetry dot com. His debut poetry collection, boy, poems is available at Amazon and elsewhere. I’m Marion, and you’ve been listening to Qwerty. Subscribe wherever podcasts are available. Qwerty is produced by Overit Studios in Albany New York. Reach them at Overit Studios dot com. Our producer is Adam Claremont, our assistant is Lorna Bailey. Want more on the art and work of writing? Visit marionroach dot com and take a class with me. And thanks for listening.

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