LIZ MORROW IS A ghostwriter and collaborator for thought leaders and industry experts. With Ariel Curry, she runs Hungry Authors, which coaches authors to publish their books, and together, they co-authored a new book, Hungry Authors, The Indispensable Guide to Planning, Writing, and Publishing, a Nonfiction Book, just out from Bloomsbury. Listen in and read along as we discuss how to write and publish a nonfiction book.
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Liz: Thank you for having me. Delighted to be here.
Marion: Well, I think the book is very, very helpful, and the world of publishing has a very bad reputation and one that scares the very people off whose ambition it is to be part of it. So your new book, Hungry Authors, takes a tack that a writer can establish the right mindset, can create a solid plan. You can be guided through the writing process and that you can pitch and publish. And I thank you for that. And I also agree with you. I’m in the totally can-do camp of writing and publishing. So let’s set up some authority here. People want to know that you know what you’re talking about. And you do so for me with that title, Hungry Authors. You have a great definition of what that means. And you state that an author’s hunger isn’t a liability. It’s an asset. So explain this, if you would, please.
Liz: Yeah, sure. So having worked in the industry for a while, collaborated with some really successful authors and agents and publishing houses, there is a quality in an aspiring author that almost all of us look for. And it is, like you said, this hunger.
You know, there’s a lot you have to do to get published, of course. Most people will tell you that you’ve got to have an idea and be able to write it and execute it and all these things. But so many publishing experts value this mindset, this determination, this gumption over a lot of those other things, because it’s that mindset that determines whether you’re going to be successful or not. A lot of these other things — finding a big idea, marketing, writing, you can learn how to do that. You can be taught how to do it. If you have this mindset that says, “I am going here, I am going to be a published author, and you can come with me.”
I’ve heard that exact sentiment from some good agent friends where they’re like, they can sort of sense it in the initial email or in the book proposal or their first interaction with an author where they’re like, “Listen, this person is committed. They are going in that direction. And it sort of feels like I can jump on and get on board or somebody else is going to because they are going there and I can come with them.” And so that is what we love in the writers that we work with. It’s what Ariel and I share in common in our own careers. And so, yeah, that’s what we mean by a “hungry author.”
Marion: Well, I think that most authors I know are pretty hungry. So I think you started from a good place. It seems to drill into something that is true. You’ve really got to be able to sustain this lifestyle. So let’s help those listening with the concept of clearly identifying your book idea. You mentioned that every piece of nonfiction is an argument. I teach this, I bang on about it. It drives everyone crazy until they realize how deeply valuable it is to identify what it is you have to say from one area of your expertise at a time. In your new book, Hungry Authors, you say that the thing that connects all bestsellers is that they take only on one big idea. And that, “a big idea is an argument centered around a timeless topic and a unique angle.” I totally agree. And my favorite of the tips here in identifying the one big idea is to ask yourself, “What are you curious about?”
You give a great example in the author Susan Cain, whose book Bittersweet began when she simply asked herself, “Why do we love sad music?” So talk a little bit more about asking yourself what you’re curious about.
Liz: Yeah, great question. I love that one too. And this is something I’ve had to work with lots of authors through when they come to me and they either want to write a book or write a book proposal and they’ve got an idea and it needs some refining. It needs that unique angle or they need a stronger take on it, you know, for one reason or another. So this is a great question to start with: What are you curious about?
This can be as simple as looking at your own bookshelf, examining the books that you read. I know it can sound a little obvious, but sometimes it’s those things that we do over and over again that actually become not so obvious to us. So what are you always thinking about? What are you always reading about? You know, we’ll often refer to these as “comp books.” If you’re writing a book on a certain topic, you want to be reading those books that are similar to yours and, you know, where yours might sit beside it on a shelf and asking yourself, like, “What are you curious about?”
What are you interested in? What are you looking for out of those books? What do you find might be missing over and over again when you read them? That might be the exact thing that you’re called to write about. That might be the exact new contribution that you are supposed to make to that space.
Susan Cain is a fantastic example. Now, she is a PhD researcher, so she is very great at asking questions and going looking for those answers. But that simple question, “Why do we like sad music?” sparked, you know, this phenomenal journey that she went on, which turned into a best-selling book. And so it could very well be the same for you if you have a topic that you’re very interested in and curious about. That’s a good place to start poking around and seeing if perhaps there’s a big idea in there or you have something different to say on that topic that nobody has said before.
Marion: I think it’s a wonderful thing. I’ve used it for the four books I’ve published, absolutely. One of the books I published with Simon & Schuster, I spent two years behind the scenes in the world of forensic science. And the whole thing began by me asking myself, “Why do you watch these shows with your hands over your eyes?” Because that’s the way I watched them.
I was watching all of them, all of the crime procedural shows, but I was watching them like literally through splayed fingers. I was afraid, but undeniably curious. And that question sparked the book. So I think it’s a great question. And I think the idea of thinking about what you like, what you’re curious about, what you’ve got on your shelf, what you pursue is a great place to start. And if I had to zero in on the one question that I’ve been asked most in my 30 years of teaching memoir, as well as the one question that literally tortures every memoirist I know, it’s this: “Why would anyone care?”
What do you say to a writer when she wonders if she has a story worth telling?
Liz: That’s a great question. So I think a good place to start is just in the belief of your innate worth. And that simply you do have a story worth sharing. I know that that is overly simplified and might sound easy for me to say, but you do. You don’t have to have a reason other than the fact that you just want to tell it. You want to write it. That is a good enough reason to write down your story, to write your book. Now, if you want to sell it commercially, yes, there are other things you’re going to have to consider. That’s just a part of publishing.
It is a business, so you’re going to have to find a big idea in there, make an argument, yes, even with memoir, position it a certain way, work on your craft, of course. If you are shooting for representation and to publish traditionally, there are other things to consider. But you don’t have to have any other reason to write your book other than the fact that you just want to. It’s worth sharing. Almost always there is somebody who is going to learn from you, relate to you, and that can be reason enough. If you want to learn how to sell it commercially and try to make a real go of it in publishing, you can figure that stuff out. But start from a place of, I want to do it. I believe there’s something here and that’s enough.
Marion: Another question I get all the time is about genre, specifically if you can mix them, self-help with memoir, for instance. What do you advise?
Liz: Yeah. Well, we always tell people there are rules around what falls into certain genres or how publishers decide what genre to publish your book in. So it is worth learning the rules and conventions of genres. They have different word counts that they recommend your book falls into. They have different styles. They have different expectations that the reader will have out of each genre. So those are worth learning and considering.
Ariel and I, my co-author, we always like to say that you need to learn those rules before you can break them. A lot of first-time authors come and they’re like, I want to mix these different genres. And we’re not telling you not to necessarily, but it’s one of those places where you do want to learn the rules first before you break them.
And yes, memoir and self-help are two commonly mixed genres. And one of the two that make the most sense to mix that you can write a memoir that, you know, is a teaching memoir. A lot of them we’ll call them now. And there are self-help elements where you communicate a lot of the wisdom that you’ve learned in the form of advice, and that can work well. It’s just, it is easier to stick to one particular genre, especially if you are a first-timer. But there are certain genres that you can mix that are a little bit easier than others. Memoir and self-help being probably the number one and the most common.
Marion: Yeah. So early in the book, you write about identifying audience and you state for the record that other people’s books, you have to accept that they’re not for everyone. The book I’m writing is not for every single person. And you keep this pretty direct and simple. By quoting authors whose target audience was identified by writing a book they themselves want to read, or in the case of the great Tim Ferriss, author of five New York Times, Wall Street Journal bestsellers, that he says you should write as if you were directing all of it to a close friend. I get that. My father was a fine sports writer and he used to tell me to write everything like a letter home. So my audience is writers and this question also drives them crazy. So talk to me about the needed intimacy of this audience identification.
Liz: Yeah. Well, a lot of times when the topic of audience comes up, people think in demographics. They’ll think, you know, age or gender or income level or profession, that sort of thing. And those types of parameters can be helpful and perhaps like a book proposal.
But in general, when it comes to the writing and finding an audience and communicating a message that really resonates with a certain kind of person, it’s much more helpful to think in psychographics. Like what keeps that person up at night? The person that you’re writing to, the person who your book can help the very most, regardless of genre, what keeps them up at night?
What are they Googling when they’re worried about something? What do they love? How do they spend their free time? These types of questions that dig a little bit deeper than just, you know, their age or demographic. I often will tell people too, when they struggle with this, because I agree with you. I hear so often from authors who just cannot identify their audience and have trouble imagining who this person might be. I found more often than not, writers are writing to the “them,” the “you” of five years ago, 10 years ago.
If you’re solving a problem for your audience, if you’re a prescriptive nonfiction writer, or if you are a memoirist and you’re writing about an experience that you had that transformed you and, you know, you learned a lot from it, you are probably writing to some old version of yourself, a version of you that existed in the past that, you know, your audience is made up of those people. Those are the people that you can often help the most. And I think this resonates with authors deeply because they’re writing that book that they wish they had back then, the book that they wish existed, and they’re making it, you know, exist for people now who have the problems that they did back then, or walking through something that they’ve already walked through.
And so, if you’re struggling to define that audience, try imagining a younger version of yourself.
Marion: Yeah. While talking about things that we wish we had back when I published my first book, I wished that I never thought that there was any value to an outline. I don’t like outlines. I don’t use outlines. And I devised something called a Memoir Map to get my students through the experience of mapping their way to a memoir. It’s book planning, and it’s an essential aspect of writing. And we agree on this. You too are mappers, as explained in your new book, Hungry Authors, The Indispensable Guide to Planning, Writing, and Publishing a Nonfiction Book. So talk to me about what your book map is, and according to you, and why everyone needs a map.
Liz: Yes. We are planners at Hungry Authors, not pantsers. I don’t know if your audience members have heard that term, fly by the seat of your pants. Yes, sitting down and writing. So of course, you know, if you are having success, no matter what your writing process looks like, I bless you, and go for it. But we find that almost always your odds of success are higher if you have planned out your book, you have mapped it out start to finish.
Now for us, this starts with determining your transformation tale. All books are about transformation. Fiction books are about the transformation of a particular character, sometimes more than one, but your protagonist, for sure. Memoirs are about the transformation of the author, you, and prescriptive nonfiction books are about the transformation of that particular reader who is learning something, and then a narrative, of course, narrative nonfiction is about the transformation of the subject of that book. All books hopefully transform the reader as well, and they go through the same transformation as the author, the character.
So, defining that transformation from the very beginning.
If you insist on being a pantser, if you really don’t want to plan out your book, I almost always implore you to at least define your transformation from the beginning. If you really want to sit down and wing it, fine, but decide at least how you or your reader is supposed to or did transform from the beginning to the end of the book. So that’s step one. And then, of course, we get more granular in our mapping process. We move into chapter structure or, you know, overall book structure, rather, and then chapter structures.
And, in the book, we go into different types of structures for different genres of nonfiction.
But it always starts with defining that transformation so that you can run everything in your book through that filter. And everything that you include is moving, you know, you or the reader towards that ultimate transformation.
Marion: Yeah, I always say that memoir, for instance, is just going from here to there, from when you didn’t know something to when you did, from when you couldn’t do something to when you could, or when you had to shed something to when you did. And answering that question, at the very least, will help you on your way. So I agree with you about the planning.
And you do something rare in this book, which is to take us all the way from idea through pitching, writing a proposal and finding a publisher. And I love the way you phrase “the proposal is something that makes the case that this book will be a successful investment.” That is a great phrase. So elaborate on that, if you would, please. What do you mean by successful investment?
Liz: Sure. So one thing that a lot of first time authors get wrong when they write a book proposal is they just don’t understand its basic function, which is to make a business case for your book. And I know that doesn’t sound super fun, especially to memoirists or people whose project is especially personal, but publishing is a business. Agents and editors are business people who have careers, and the way that they stay in those careers and make money is they make good bets, which is what they’re doing. When they buy your book proposal, they are making an investment in you. They are making a bet on you.
They are giving you money and hoping that they make it back. It is an investment. That’s how the business works. So, when you write your book proposal, it is your job not to communicate how passionate you are about the project or even how great it will be, although hopefully that also comes through. It is your main job to communicate that this is a good business decision for that agent or editor and that you can sell the book, that there is an audience for it, and that it will make everybody more successful in this process. So going in with that mindset alone will improve your proposal writing skills.
Marion: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s very, very important. I also really like the philosophy you bring to how to get published in which you state, unequivocally, that too many authors believe that how they publish says something about who they are, and that instead the writer’s mindset should not be traditional publishing or bust, but instead, “How do I make this happen?”
So I talk every day about this with the authors I work with, and now I throw it to you. Talk to those listening about fit and getting it right in terms of the choices of where to publish.
Liz: Yeah. So it is totally normal and good even to have some goals around how you’d like to publish. When Ariel and I set out on our journey to publish a book, we went back and forth on this. We wanted a hybrid publish because we wanted it out quickly. We wanted a lot of control. And then over the course of a few months, Ariel, to her credit, was the one who said it. She was like, “We work in traditional publishing. We write book proposals for a living. Let’s shoot our shot.” And so we said, okay. And then eventually, you know, that worked out for us and our book was traditionally published.
But all along the way, we were prepared to do it however it worked out. We had goals that we held loosely. And for some people, if you have a goal of traditional publishing, it can be helpful to set either a walkaway point or a certain amount of pitches that you’re going to send out before you pivot. But the main point is that there are lots of options, so many good ones. The days of self or hybrid publishing having any kind of stigma to it are over. A lot of really successful traditionally published authors now started as hybrid or self-published authors and were scouted by traditional publishers. So that’s happening more and more. And in the book, we go into some detail about the pros and cons of each model and why one might be a better fit for you than the others.
But the most important thing to know is that hungry authors are bound and determined to make it happen no matter what. There’s never been a better time to be an author because of the amount of choices out there. You can’t make a wrong decision and to just go for it. There’s a lot of different ways to get to where you want to go, even if it takes some twists and turns along the way. That’s okay. That’s pretty normal in publishing. You’re going to have lots of disappointments. But keep going and take the next right step, even if it doesn’t look the way that you thought, because there’s a lot of different ways to get there.
Marion: That’s absolutely true. And I think the enthusiasm combined with the hunger is a good thing. So as we wrap this up, let’s talk about the idea of endurance.
Give some encouragement, some advice, some motivation. How do writers stay motivated throughout the writing process?
Liz: Yeah. Well, take care of yourself. That is really important, something I’m constantly reminding myself of. I had a mentor remind me of that the other day when I was just going on about some projects that I was struggling with and having trouble in these certain areas of my career, blah, blah, blah. And she was like, have you gone on a walk today? Have you eaten anything? How much did you sleep? Can we solve this by a good night’s sleep? It sounds sillier and perhaps reductive, but it’s really important. Ariel and I have incredible advantage in this industry. We have an agent, we have tons of experience, and we still get turned down.
People say no to us. We experience all kinds of disappointments. And so taking care of yourself, making sure that you have things outside of publishing your book or your publishing career that matter to you and that bring a lot of joy and life to your life, and taking short breaks. When I get an email that says no, I lose out on a big opportunity that I’m disappointed in, take a minute, walk away, remind yourself that that’s not end all, be all. Often, “no” can be the start of something else. And also, nothing is final.
Going back to your previous question, there’s tons of different ways to be published. There’s lots of different agents and editors looking for new writers. So “no” does not mean that doors are closing on you if you’re talking about writing your book and just maintaining the stamina that’s required to finish the 70, 80, 90,000 words that it takes to get there. Yeah, taking breaks. In our book, we go into a lot of writing rhythms that can be very helpful. I like to keep a little folder of good reviews and good notes people have written to me just when I’m feeling especially down and at the end of the day, everything I wrote was absolute trash and no one’s going to like it and all those things we all think in our head. I’ll pop open my little joy folder and go like, “Oh, look, lots of people have said they liked my writing,” even if it’s just your mom or your husband or whatever, remind yourself that there are people out there rooting for you who have liked what you’ve written. You will write good things again, try again in the morning. And just have a long-term view, I guess. This is a long journey. There’s ups and downs. If we had hours, I could recall to you all the many times I’ve been rejected and lost out on things. And then not far around the corner were some of the biggest highs and biggest wins of my career.
Marion: So, you know, stay at it.
Marion: Stay at it. Thank you, Liz. That was the perfect place to end this. I so appreciate you coming along today. Thank you so much.
Liz: Thanks for having me.
Marion: You’re so welcome. The author is Liz Morrow. The book is Hungry Authors, the Indispensable Guide to Planning, Writing, and Publishing a Nonfiction Book. Just out from Bloomsbury and co-written with Ariel Curry. Get it wherever books are sold. See more on the authors, their work, and the book at Hungry Authors dot com. I’m Marion Roach Smith, and you’ve been listening to QWERTY. QWERTY is produced by Overit Studios in Albany, New York. Reach them at Overit Studios dot com. Our producer is Jacqueline Mignot. Our assistant is Lorna Bailey. Want more on the art and work of writing? Visit Marion Roach dot com, the home of The Memoir Project, where writers get their needs met through online classes in how to write memoir. And thanks for listening. Don’t forget to follow QWERTY wherever you get your podcasts and listen to it wherever you go. And if you like what you hear, please leave us a review. It helps others to find their way to their writing lives.
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