SHANNON DOWNEY IS THE founder of Badass Cross Stitch and Seriously Badass Women. An activist, artist, craftivist, community builder, and general instigator, her award-winning work can be found in galleries, museums, and private collections around the world and has been featured in outlets including Vogue, Harper’s Bazaar, Atlas Obscura, and more. She’s also included in books such as Notorious RBG, The Life and Times of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Signs of Resistance, a Visual History of Protest in America. Her debut book is Let’s Move the Needle, an Activism Handbook for Artists, Crafters, Creatives, and Makers, just out from Storey Publishing, a subdivision of Hachette. Listen in and read along as we discuss the role of art in troubling times, and so much more.
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Shannon: Thank you so much for having me.
Marion: Well, it’s really fun to have you here. And as we were talking before, I’ve been giving this book to people. So I just full, total, absolutely full admission. This is my favorite book to give to people. So, let’s talk about it. I’ve been following you for a long time on Instagram, and it’s been a joy to watch your growth and now see this book. So congratulations on that. And in my intro and on the book jacket, it defines you as a craftivist. So why don’t you define that for people, please?
Shannon: Yeah, I mean, it’s just sort of the mashup of craft and activism, but in its simplest terms, but I really think of, like, I use craft as a tool within my activism. And so that’s how I think about craftivism, is how can we use different creative mediums to organize community and then amplify messages and get the word out about things that we care about.
Marion: Perfect. A little background here. Craftivism is not new. As you write and you point out, the pileus or pileus — I’m not sure how that’s pronounced, sorry — or liberty cap was gifted to and worn by formerly enslaved people when they were liberated. It dates to the latter years of the Roman Empire. I learned this in your book.
This idea of handmade caps is a symbol of freedom evolved into liberty caps and the American and French revolutions. And of course, we saw them in the pink pussy hats worn during the first Trump presidency and still in evidence today.
In your personal history, you write that activism is in your blood. You grew up in a union family, walked picket lines, helped get out the vote. You write that, quote, “Activism has been a metric of my growth, much like the height chart marked my childhood bedroom doorframe.” And you write that you started stitching in fifth grade with a teacher and you made a pink bunny rabbit cross stitch that still hangs in your parents’ house to this day. Then you stopped stitching for 20 years until you, quote, “Started to connect with the content.”
So let’s start there. Explain what you mean by that, please.
Shannon: Yeah. Well, when I learned to stitch in fifth grade, obviously I didn’t have a choice of what I was stitching. And I made a pink bunny with a blue eye and profile. And I thought, Well, this is the stupidest thing ever. But I loved my teacher so much. So I was like, you know, I’ll do whatever you want. I gave it to my parents and I didn’t stitch again for 20 years. And then 20 years later, fast forward, I’m running a digital marketing company. I’m connected to a device 24-7. I’m cranky. I hate everything. I’m on Etsy and I come across a Captain Picard Star Trek cross stitch pattern. And I was like, “Oh my God, nobody loves Captain Picard more than me. This looks fun. I should do this.” So I downloaded this pattern. I stitched it. And, you know, like it was delightful stitching it. And I was like, “Oh, maybe I do like this medium.”
But the content got in the way of me falling in love with this medium back in the day. And now that I’m stitching content that amuses me in this situation, I’m really enjoying it. I’m having a good time. And then over the course of the next few days, I had like good ideas and I hadn’t had a creative idea in weeks. So it was like this real moment of like, Oh, digital analog balance. Oh, I do love this medium. Oh, this is also interesting and fascinating. And then, you know, now’s now.
Marion: Now is now. That’s great. I love that when we do connect with the content, when we understand that we can be a writer, but we can write about the things we believe in, we can write into the things that we believe in, something happens. It’s an energy confluence. And I just loved reading that. And I felt it on a cellular level that this is where we live best as creatives.
And you write about your first community project, where you stitched a handgun that led you to getting lots of followers. But you write the followers were never the idea. You wanted an engaged community that was working with you for change. And at an estate sale, you found an unfinished massive embroidered quilt project that you picked up for six bucks, posted photos on Instagram, and within 24 hours, more than 1,000 people volunteered to help finish what you learned had been a project of Rita Smith, a feminist who passed away at 99. And so talk to us a little bit about this. This ends up being a project that debuted a Chicago gallery. It’s a quilt that traveled to the National Quilt Museum. And later on, I want to talk with you about your RV trip for two years. But you took this quilt to 40 states, and it’s touched millions of people.
So what did you learn as this quilt project built into something? What did you learn in all of this?
Shannon: Oh, I learned so much.
You know, there was sort of the technical things, you know, I’m pretty good at organizing people. And with a project like this, I knew that if we didn’t keep momentum, and we didn’t keep things moving, that it would collapse. So it was a lot of like, having to literally do nothing for three months, except run this project, because, you know, that was the only way that it was gonna happen and get done.
I learned a lot about just the press. I probably did over 100 interviews while that project was happening, everything from, you know, print media, podcast, television, daytime TV, nightly news, all of that. And it was really funny. And at first very frustrating, because for me, this project was like a radical feminist act. It was to bring together all of these people to complete a project that one woman had started and wasn’t able to complete. And it really was like, I bought it for five bucks. And I was just so heartbroken that this project that, you know, this woman was a prolific maker, and I’m at her estate sale after she dies, and I find this and they’re like, “Yeah, five bucks.” You know, and I’m just like, this is in honor of all of our ancestors and elders that have been creating and making in fiber arts for their entire lives, and getting like no appreciation for it, you know, no attention for it. It’s, you know, almost not even considered art.
You know, that’s how I went into this. I was like, yeah, radical feminist act. And so I’m saying that in all of the interviews, and in every press piece that came out after every piece was like, “And these nice people have come together to finish this dead woman’s quilt” and, and like every cliche you could imagine, like, they’re stitching America back together.
Marion: If only it was that easy.
Shannon: I was like, losing it. But what was fascinating, and now I’m actually like, kind of grateful for it. Because it was, you know, December 2019, people were really struggling, the Trump administration, just like everything going on. It’s December, so it’s right before Christmas. So everybody is like, looking for these heartwarming stories. And that’s what the press was delivering. And it is a heartwarming story. So they weren’t lying. It was just like, not the angle I wish they had chosen.
But it was the first thing I’ve done where I like, didn’t get death threats, right? Like I wasn’t being like, threatened. I wasn’t being attacked. It was just sort of like, everybody was like, “Oh, this is so nice.” And like, everybody got behind it. And what was interesting was like, you know, all of these people whose ideologies do not align with mine started following me on social media. And I was like, “Oh, this is really interesting. I wonder how they’re going to react when I go back to my normally scheduled work, which is all wildly political.”
And it was like, the cognitive dissonance was so huge that they didn’t know what to do. They couldn’t leave me because they were like, “No, but, but we love her. Look at what she did. Like, this was so kind and generous and she’s obviously a good person.” And then they’re, you know, seeing posts about abortion and they’re like, “I don’t know what to do. I’m so confused and conflicted.” But to their credit, most of them stayed and we’ve had incredible conversations and like some real sort of eye-opening groundbreaking, you know, conversations and moments together. And so I really credit Rita’s Quilt with like, ushering in a lot of opportunity for this dialogue and for these connections.
Marion: Yes, that’s what it felt like. And as you said, as people are saying, some of the people who have opposing views, political views to yours are saying, “I don’t know what to do.” “I don’t know what to do” seems to be the one sentence we’re speaking in common right now.
I was invited to a dinner party recently that devolved into people, they almost appeared to me to have their hair on fire saying, “What can we do? What can we do?” And I know there are many such meals going on everywhere in America. And I would recommend to anyone who’s having that feeling to grab this book. It’s called Let’s Move the Needle, An Activism Handbook for aArtists, Crafters, Creatives, and Makers. And in it, you state that art is the greatest tool you’ve stumbled upon for building communities and mobilizing them to take action that will bring about actual social change. And that’s the story you just told us with Rita’s Quilt. And that’s why I love that story.
And you began with stitch-ups in Chicago where people learn to embroider. And what you noticed was that people began sharing and having real conversations about, as you wrote, quote, all the things you are told never to talk about in public with strangers. So to dig into this a bit more deeply, what is it about stitching together or painting together or quilting together or singing together that allows us to move into the important topics of our lives?
Shannon: I mean, I could speak for embroidery because that’s where I spend the most time, but there’s so many elements to creating a space for people to make and connect. And embroidery is just like this one little tool that I use to bring them together.
And I like to say I trick them into hanging out with me by, you know, like telling them, I’ll teach them about embroidery, but really I’m just trying to get them into movements and causes.
But they come together and everybody’s learning something new, right? So they’ve really not done it before. And so there’s this sort of like shared discomfort at the fact that they’re about to try something new, which is particularly challenging for adults, I’ve noticed. And there’s a real fear of like wanting to be perfect immediately. And I just debunked that right away. Like this isn’t hard, but it does take practice.
And so I’m getting people together. I’m introducing them to each other. We’re learning this new activity and, you know, we have a lot of fun while we’re learning it. But then you get to the part where you just have to stitch. You just have to like do the thing. And so you’re just sitting there in silence with a whole bunch of people focused on this thing in front of you. And the natural reaction is then to have a conversation because you’re just sitting there in silence. And so these conversations sort of naturally start, but while you’re stitching, you know, stitching is inherently slow.
So it really calms everyone down once they get into it, right? And so they’re moving slow, they’re thinking slow, they’re communicating slowly. And we don’t have any of the sort of body language that can get in the way of these sort of high impact conversations because everybody’s sort of looking down working on their own thing. So we’re not staring at somebody being like, “We have to talk about this.” You know, you’re just sort of having the conversation and doing your thing.
And because you’re working on something, if somebody says something that, you know, triggers you or upsets you or confuses you, you can dip out of that conversation without anybody even blinking, right? Because you’re just going back to focus on what you’re doing. You’re at a very tricky part of your embroidery and you really have to focus, you know, like you can’t respond to that right now. And that’s okay.
And that gives people time to think about how they feel and think about how they might want to respond or not respond. And then they can, you know, jump back in the conversation when they feel ready. So I think that there’s just this like shared sense of doing something together. We’re creating, we’re trying something new. We’re all being vulnerable and taking risks. And then we’ve got this medium that really lends itself to high impact conversations with a very like low stress point.
Marion: Lovely. And so evocative of so much of creativity where if you’re engaging in something else, you have good ideas. You know, if you’re, I know I’ve said this before on this podcast, when I’m chopping vegetables with the most dangerous knife in my drawer, I frequently get writing ideas; that when we’re doing one thing, it frees up the mind and it frees up a lot of emotional content too. And you’re very candid in this book about the emotions in your work. In fact, you describe something that you call “a rage stitch.” And I think it’s here that I really fell into your work when I saw what I thought was traditional, this traditional art embroidery and cross stitching, as the stuff of samplers and cute little aphorisms completely turned on its head into the rage against the systems of oppression that include, but are not limited to the patriarchy, white supremacist ideology, gun violence, anything anti-feminist and into support for the LGBTQIA community, making art, DEI, curiosity, and more. So take me into the components of a good rage stitch. That is, what it does for you and what it feels like to share it with the world.
Shannon: First, you need a lot of rage, which is really…
Marion: Oh, we got none of that. Sorry.
Shannon: Yeah, like really not hard to come by these days. You know, my first rage stitch was Boys Will Be Boys. And it was right after the Trump Hollywood Access video. And I heard it and I thought, “Oh, this is it, you’re done for, like, we heard you, you said it out loud.” And then I was watching some like newscasters talk about it. And one of them was like, “Oh, it’s just locker room talk. It’s boys will be boys stuff.” And I was so enraged.
And I remember my mom being so enraged when my brother and his friends set a fire in the woods. To be fair, they were Boy Scouts, it was a very safe fire. But regardless, they set a fire in the woods. And one of the other boys’ moms was like, you know, “Boys will be boys.” And my mom came home raging that that was her response.
And so I don’t know, like, it was sort of just the combination of all of those things. And I just picked up a piece of fabric and I started, I just wanted to stab something. And I just started stabbing. And I didn’t plan it out. I just started stitching. And I just wrote “Boys will be boys.” And I crossed out that bottom boys. And I stitched in a different font, like “will be held accountable for their fucking actions.” And I just like after I stitched it, I was like, yeah, like, that’s what that should, you know, like, I just it was like, there was so much righteous energy in that piece.
And I sort of put it out there, which was a little uncomfortable for me, because it’s not pretty. It’s not well stitched, like technically, right? It’s like, it’s literally just my rage poured into this piece. And of course, it went viral and has gone viral 10 million times, like every time some famous man does something awful, it goes viral. And at first I was like, “Oh, God, I’m so embarrassed that this is the stitch that’s going viral just because it’s like so technically bad.” And then somebody was like, “Well, but we can see the rage in it. Like we we connect deeply both with what you’re saying and the feeling of it,” which I didn’t even realize that you could feel it. You know, I just I felt it while I was doing it, but I didn’t realize that you could look at it and feel all the rage I was feeling. And so after that person made that comment, I was like, “Well, shit, that is a great piece. I love it.” And it changed totally how I thought about it.
Marion: Yeah, it does look like it’s a series of stabs. It’s very interesting.
Shannon: It’s real angry.
Marion: And I find that fascinating and very intriguing. So you’ve got this range of emotion, you know how to utilize it in your work, you have organized thousands of embroidery workshops, dozens of community art projects, several global craftism in projects, you facilitated training, hosted social stitching events and virtual global maker events and spread your message to millions. And now this book, before we went live, you said that the writing experience was quote, “So weird.” So let’s talk about that. Talk. I love that. “So weird.” Yep. So talk to me about the challenge of pivoting to this art form. This is not a how to stitch book. This is how to be an activist’s book. So let’s start with the emotional content of the challenge. Was there fear, doubt? What was it when you sat down to write?
Shannon: Well, what’s funny is, is I had no intention of writing a book. I had no aspirations of writing a book. But I must have written something really smart in like September 2019, because in the course of that month, I got reached out to by like eight different literary agents all saying like, “I want to make a book with you.” And I don’t know anything about the publishing world or didn’t at that time. And I was just like, “What is this racket?” Like, I really thought literary agents were like coaches or like, you know, just somebody trying to get me to give them money.
And so I called an author friend of mine and I was like, “What’s the deal with literary agents?” And he was like, “Why?” And I told him and he was like, “I will murder you if you don’t meet with all of them.” And I was like, what’s the dream, Shannon? And I was like, oh, shit, okay. So I took meetings with all of them and they were lovely. But seven out of eight of them were like, “Yeah, we want to make a craft book with you.” And there was nothing less interesting to me than making a craft book. I was like, “Oh, you don’t understand who I am or what I’m doing here.” Like that’s all that told me was they just don’t they don’t get it. And then I met with my current agent. And within 15 minutes, I was like, “Are we soulmates? Are you my best friend? Like, what is happening here?”
She got me. And she, you know, had these ideas for what a book might look like with me. And they didn’t involve craft. They were all activism. And then I got really excited. And I was sort of like, “Yeah, I enjoy writing. I write a lot.” I just never thought about, you know, putting it into book form. And I was a little like, “Oh, I don’t do I even have enough material? Like would I even be able to make a book?”
But we started working together. And we got through an entire book proposal, which I didn’t even realize what I was signing up for with that. I was like, “Oh, my God, this is so much work.” And then she’s about to start sending it out. And I was like, “Oh, Mar, stop, don’t.” And she’s like, “What? Why?”
And I was like, “That’s not the book.” And she was like, “But we just wrote a whole book proposal.” I was like, “I know. But there’s something in me telling me that’s not quite the book. And I can’t write that book.” And she was like, “Okay, what do you want to do?” And I was like, “Can I just call you back when I know what the book is?” And she’s like, “Sure.” And it took me two years to call her back. And then I called her back. And I was like, “Hey, girl, you remember me? Do you still want to work with me?” And she was like, “Yeah. Do you know what the book is?”And I was like, “I do.” And she’s like, “All right, let’s make a book proposal.” And I was like, “Nah, I’m going to write the book first.” And she’s like, that’s not how. “They’ll pay you to write a book.” And I was like, “No, I don’t want money. I don’t want other people dictating deadlines or voices in my ear. I want to write the book that I know that I have to write, and then we’ll sell it. And if people want to publish it, then they can. And if not, like, I’ll self-publish.”
Like, I don’t know. This book’s coming out of me at this point, whether I want it to or not. And so I wrote the book, and it took me about a year. And then I called her, and I was like, okay, I wrote the book. And it’s much easier to write a book proposal after you’ve written the whole book, turns out. So we just, we wrote the book proposal, and she’s like, “Okay, I’m going to send it out.” And I was like, “Cool, that’s the book.” And so she did, and so many editors were interested. And almost all of them were like, “Yeah, she’ll just dial back the activism and focus on a craft book like we’re in.” I was like, “How is this still happening? I wrote the whole book, it’s not about craft.”
But I had two great meetings. And then I ended up picking Storey because Storey, I mean, it was just one of the best meetings in my life. They just, they got me, they got what I was trying to do. They were excited about it. They knew who I was, like, there was no question. I did meet with an agency or a publishing company. And their first question was, “So are you still relevant?” Wow, what a curious question to ask someone that you’re interested in publishing their book.
Marion: Oh, my.
Shannon: You know, so you get a little in your head about it, and you’re like, well, shit, am I still relevant? Does anybody care what I have to say? I don’t know. But once I met with Storey, I was like, Okay, we’re doing this. And then I was like, “It needs to come out before the election.” And this was the September, like the year before the election. And they were like, “We’ve never worked that fast on anything before, like we literally have a two year process.” And I was like, “Yeah, but it’s really important it comes out before the election. So I feel like, I mean, I already wrote the book, I feel like we should do this.” So we had a lot of talks, and they were very hesitant. And then I was just like, “I believe in us.” And they were like, “Okay, let’s do it. We’re gonna do it.”
Marion: That’s wonderful. And twice in there, you said “no.” And no, because it wasn’t you. And this is a very important and difficult lesson that writers need to learn, is about what is your territory? And what are your tolerances? And what will you do? And so in your bio, it states that this book, quote, “Moves people from passive consumers of art into engaged creators and leverages craft based art forms to bring people together, present opportunities to transition from makers to change makers, and inspire radical change for what is possible.”
And for someone to see that, it would be the only way for this to come to the bookshelves, I guess. That’s what you’re saying is that it had to have, there’s so many fascinating things about that story. The most fascinating thing is how few people got it and didn’t want to just go for the easy shot. And so to those writers who are out there with radical ideas, or ideas that they haven’t seen on the shelf, or ideas that they genuinely believe in, I would just love you to say something directly to them about holding their course.
Shannon: I just couldn’t imagine putting that much labor and intentionality and love and passion into something that in the end, I wasn’t proud of. And that was because I wouldn’t say no. I couldn’t imagine it, right. And like, I’m so proud of every inch of this book, like the design, the art that’s in it, the choices that we made. And those were like hard earned wins.
And there was a lot of advocating that I had to do through the whole process. And not because they were doing anything wrong or whatever, it was just sort of like, “No, I know what this book needs to be. And I can’t accept anything less than my vision for this book.” And I was willing to say no to deals. I was willing to self-publish if I had to, even though that would be so much more work on me. There was just so many things I was willing to do. And I very much had to trust myself in the process and just say like, no, a lot. I said “no” a lot. Well, it makes sense.
Marion: I mean, this may be the most practical book I’ve ever read about how to set and meet goals too. You promote the SMART system designed in 1981 by George Doran, Arthur Miller and James Cunningham, which has been the staples of building and running businesses since then. And SMART stands for specific, measurable, attainable, relevant and time bound. But you added one, which is “sentiment-led.” And I think that sentiment led is what that story tells us that you have to have real not sentimentality, sentiment. And so just as we wrap this up, talk to me a bit about getting your own sentiment. I think you just told us a great story about that, but I bet you have a little bit more to say about recognizing your sentiment as territory and making sure it’s in your work.
Shannon: Yeah, for me, the process is almost paramount to the outcome.
I want every experience that I have in making and creating to be really exciting to me, to pique my curiosity at all stages. I always want to learn things through the process. And boy, did I learn a lot through making a book, like so much.
So for me, it’s not just about how I feel, but also how everyone who’s working on a thing together feels. And I’m not afraid of conflict, and I’m not afraid of challenging conversations, and I’m not afraid of disagreements. But for me, it’s like, how are we doing all of those things in a way that, you know, in the end, we all feel like, oh, that was a really valuable process. And that’s what I wanted on all phases of this book as well, was just like, how do we all feel through this process? And it doesn’t mean that you always feel good. It just means that we’re being respectful, we’re being thoughtful, we’re having the challenging conversations. We’re not just saying yes to things because it will make things easier or move faster, right? So I had to spend a lot of time being like, is that edit a good edit for me or not? And do I need to push back on that? I mean, it was just every aspect of the process. But that’s how I work, right? Like, that’s how I work in community. That’s how I work on projects. Like, it really does matter to me that the process is as important, if not more, than the outcomes.
Marion: Well, it shows. And I thank you so much for this book, Shannon. It’s a joy to talk to you. It’s a joy to read. It’s a joy to give. And it answers the question, “What should we do?” Thank you so much.
Shannon: Thank you so much, Marion.
Marion: The author is Shannon Downey. The book is Let’s Move the Needle, an Activism Handbook for Artists, Crafters, Creatives, and Makers just out from Storey Publishing, a division of Hachette. See more on Instagram at badass cross stitch. I’m Marion Roach Smith, and you’ve been listening to QWERTY. QWERTY is produced by Overit Studios in Albany, New York. Reach them at overit studios dot com. Our producer is Jacqueline Mignot. Our assistant is Lorna Bailey. Want more on the art and work of writing? Visit marion roach dot com, the home of The Memoir Project, where writers get their needs met through online classes and how to write memoir. And thanks for listening. Don’t forget to follow QWERTY wherever you get your podcasts and listen to it wherever you go. And if you like what you hear, please leave us a review. It helps others to find their way to their writing lives.
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