WHEN WRITER AND AUTHOR Khadijah VanBrakle published her debut novel, Fatima Tate Takes the Cake, it became a 2024 NAACP Image Award finalist for Outstanding Youth Teens Literature, a School Library Journal’s Teen Librarian Toolbox Favorite Young Adult Read of 2023, and a Junior Library Guild Gold Standard Selection. In 2021, she was selected for the Highlights Foundation Muslim Storytellers Fellowship. She returns to the publishing world now with her newest young adult novel, My Perfect Family, just out from Holiday House, a division of Penguin Random House. Khadijah writes from her experience as a Black Muslim in America. Listen in and read along as she and I discuss how to write what you know, and so much more.

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Khadijah: Thank you, Marion.

Marion: Your debut novel, Fatima Tate Takes the Cake, I loved this book, brings us to the intersections of culture, gender, and religion, and throws in some baking, which is a very fun addition. Your new novel, My Perfect Family, gives us an intergenerational narrative that covers the complex relationships mothers and daughters have, and explores what it means to be a Black Muslim woman in America.

As a Black Muslim woman in America, as a mother of five, you are the living example of the adage to write what you know. So, talk to me a bit about inhabiting that, owning that. Did you have to give yourself permission to do that, to write precisely from where you are?

Khadijah: That’s an amazing question. I actually had to because knowing my personality, I don’t write about sunshine and rainbows. So unfortunately, since there are so few contemporary young adult novels that feature Black American Muslims that are traditionally published, I had a conversation with myself and then with my family to say, “I’m going to be addressing things in my books that we all know are true, that a lot of people in my faith community either ignore or refuse to discuss out in public.”

My household is different where we talked about everything because I encourage my kids, I’d rather them come home and ask me than ask some of their classmates or just make assumptions about something that maybe they’re unfamiliar with, or something they’re trying to grasp or understand. So I definitely had to say and I had to be like, well, “Certain people are going to have a problem with the topics that I address.” But I’ve heard from teenagers, from within my faith community and outside of my faith community, that my characters seem very realistic and they deal with realistic issues. And that is my goal when I write my books.

Marion: That’s a lovely goal. On your website, you have a section for resources, which is very generous of you. And it was there that I learned about an organization that’s called We Need Diverse Books, located online at diversebooks.org. Their mission is to create lifelong readers and a more empathetic world through the power of inclusive literature. They’re a nonprofit, they take a holistic approach in improving literacy and building compassion by effecting change across entire reading pipelines. And so I love this and I love diversebooks.org. I’ve already reached out to them to see if we can do something together. But it got me thinking about you, and what you might have been like as a child. So let’s scroll back in time a bit, starting with you and your own reading.

Did you see yourself on the shelves of their local library or bookstores?

Khadijah: Never, unfortunately. And, you know, I grew up, you know, before the internet. So I used to spend hours by myself or sometimes with my sister or friends, but I would spend hours, unaccompanied minor, in the libraries in Canada.

Marion: Dangerous unaccompanied minor.

Khadijah: Yes, I sometimes I veered towards the adult side, which there was no book banning. My mom never asked me what I was reading. Probably it’s best for her. So, we’re a library family. So with five kids, you realize if one child is in the bathroom for 30 minutes, first you ask, “Are you okay?” And then you say, put the book down. Because that’s what they were doing.

Marion: “Are you okay? Put the book down.” This is a fabulous scene. I am a mother. I get it.

Khadijah: So, yeah, I definitely didn’t see it. And unfortunately, in 2017, when my daughter came home, my youngest daughter was a freshman in high school, and she was in a new high school. And she said, Mommy, I almost got in a fight. And I said, “Uh oh. Why?” Because somebody told her you can’t be Black and Muslim at the same time.

So that’s when we went to the library. And we asked the librarian here where I live. And I said, “You know, are there any contemporary young adult books that have Black American Muslims?” And this is 2017. There wasn’t a single one that was traditionally published.

So that was the onus for me to start. And so, of course, I had to read some books in the genre. The first one I grabbed was Speak by Laurie Halse Anderson. And that rocked my world. And so then I just jumped on Jennifer Niven, Tiffany D. Jackson, Erica L. Sanchez, because I knew I wanted to write about the tougher subjects. And I needed permission from reading those books to know that I could.

Marion: That’s a wonderful, wonderful relationship you had with both your children and with this idea of giving permission. I so appreciate it. Such a generous answer, because the thing is, we do sometimes have to move into a space, and we have to either ask ourselves or the people around us, or just meet a need, right, that’s not being met. And it’s worth noting, because I did a little research that Goodreads, the online site now keeps an active list of books by Black Muslims that feature Black Muslim characters. So that’s a good step forward. And it sounds like you’re seeing more. But when you go to the shelves of your library and your bookstore today where you live, are you seeing the percentages go up significantly?

Khadijah: So, I do know in other genres, say, for example, in picture books, and in some middle grade genres, that you do see more contemporary young adults is a little slower to progress. So I’m doing my best. And this is another reason why — you when you mentioned that I have resources on my website, — because it’s so important for my example, not just to be about, yes, I want to prove to traditional publishing and to my publisher that books that I write about the subject matter that I write do sell because publishing is a business. But I want any success, or any accolades that I receive, to encourage other writers who look like me and have a shared lived experience to know that your stories can also be told, because I think it does such a service to other people. And then also, you know, I’ve had people come to me and you say, “I might not be Black and I might not be Muslim, but I could identify and relate to Fatima Tate and also to Lena in this upcoming book, My Perfect Family, that they could relate to the characters. And that means so much to me.

Marion: Yeah. Providing this space for teens is a really interesting thing to do. And as you said, you saw that as an underserved population. So what are the advantages as a writer writing for teens?

Khadijah: I think that it sort of grounds you because I think too many adults will look at teenagers today and think of all the technological advances that they have and think that their life is so much easier than ours was. It’s not easier or more difficult. It’s different.

And I think that we have to remember that because, you know, yes, we didn’t have the Internet and we didn’t have phones, but we also didn’t have the distractions like, you know, we didn’t have the distractions of, oh, I’m supposed to be doing my homework and, or we didn’t have the constant input of, you know, judgment or say I make an Instagram post or I’m not on TikTok, but my youngest daughter is, is 22. But like we did not have that distraction. And we also didn’t have that external criticism from who knows who, who’s saying something and we don’t know who they are, and that you might take to heart. You know, when I write for teens, I look into the media that they do and that helps me work the voice of my characters because I always want my characters not to sound like me, but I want them to sound like the teenagers that I’m creating.

Marion: Absolutely. And in this wonderful new novel, My Perfect Family, which is just out from Holiday House, your main character is Lena, who is very close to her mother. And without giving away the plot, since I want everyone listening to buy and read this book, I want to talk about and dig into the fact that her mother has fallen away from most Islamic teachings and is only through a discovery of family, that Lena did not previously know about, that Lena experiences the faith her mother has mostly left behind. And the brilliant complexity of this novel, I think, lies in the fact that you’re willing and able to take on being a Black Muslim in America, the ever-popular topic of family secrets, as well as what it means to be a young person forging one’s own path.

So, let’s talk about taking on themes. These are big ones. Did you choose those up front and decide on the characters? Did the characters come to you and lead you to the themes? My audience is writers, and they want to know how this is done. So how and when did this story roll out for you?

Khadijah: So I had the idea for the story actually right before I signed with my literary agent in February of 2020. So I am a big fan. I own all seven seasons of The Gilmore Girls on DVD. So my tweet, in probably January of 2020, was I would love to write a story that was inspired by the fraught mother daughter relationships in The Gilmore Girls, but within a Black American Muslim family.

Marion: This is my favorite book pitch ever. That’s first of all, my daughter and I watched every episode of that, I’m going to say five times. And so I get it and I get what you’re going for. And I totally recognize that in Lena and her mother. That’s fantastic. So what did your agent say?

Khadijah: So it was funny because when we had our conversation, of course, it was about Fatima Tate, but she told me in the call, she said that she would so represent that idea of a book that I had, which I was pleasantly surprised because first of all, I didn’t know that she saw the Tweet.

So for me, it always starts with character. So that is what I work on. When I get an idea for a story, if I can write and you know, what used to be a Twitter pitch, 280 characters for a story, I can write the book. Because I start with giving my characters an impossible choice. And then I backtrack and then I work on character. My favorite of all times, and I know what’s in the picture on my website is Story Genius by Lisa Krohn. Because I don’t like to draft, I’m a reviser through and through. I could revise all day, every day for the rest of my life. But I know I can’t do that. So for me, drafting is so difficult. So I have to do a lot of pre-work. And it really helps me since my books are character-driven, to focus on the character. So I do a lot of work on the main character and the main secondary characters.

Marion: So I’m so glad to hear that you’re character-driven. I find that to be fascinating. And I wonder how you keep everything straight. As I said before, we’ve got lots of big themes in this. So the question becomes, again, from the writers that I know are listening, they say, “Okay, you’ve got your characters, you’ve got these themes that you want to take on. So do you put them all up on a wall on a piece of cardboard? Do you use index cards? Do you use a computer or some kind of software program? How do you keep everything straight?”

Khadijah: So what I do is using Story Genius by Lisa Cron, I created a digital scene card. So one of the things that I do before I start drafting is I create a scene card for every scene in my books. It’s daunting when you think of it. So I have to break it down. Because if I think about that, I’m going to come up with 200 scene cards, then I get overwhelmed.

So I think about every day, okay, if I do five, or if I do six, because it’s drafting, so I schedule it out. The best thing that I learned was when you take the time, and then when nobody’s expecting it. So that was the beauty of the first book, Fatima Tate Takes a Cake, there was no deadline. So I was trying to come up with a method for me drafting and then revising my books, so that when I did have a deadline, that I would have the method in place. Because with Fatima Tate, I could take my time, probably from start to finish. And then there was a rewrite in there after a sensitivity reader that I paid, it probably took 18 months. I typically did not have that with My Perfect Family. So I was like, Okay, we must come up with a method to the madness to help me get over my anxiety-fueled fear of drafting.

Marion: Anxiety-fueled fear of drafting. I don’t know, I’m thinking we need a special tea for that or something. It is absolutely positively true that in my first years as a writer, I’d call my agent, I’d pitch her a book, she’d say, “Ah, so how are you going to do that?” Which means, what’s the structure? And I would say, “Oh my goodness, look at the time. You know what, I really, I have that meeting now, I have to go.” And I work with writers all day long. And when it comes to structure, it is the single most dreaded word for writers. So these scene cards, what is the content like? How much content are you putting on that?

Khadijah:  So I usually have, because I’m a little verbose when I’m writing and when I’m talking, so I usually have extra notes. So most people don’t, but it talks about the third rail. And it also talks about just what happened in the scene, what were the consequences, why it matters, what did it make the character realize. And then, the last little section is “and so,” because pacing is an issue. So, for example, you always want your character actually doing something at the end of the scene. So that “and so,” is what the character does. So it’s not just about a feeling, it’s just not, I was thinking, I was brooding. What did the character do in that scene to forward the story?

Marion: I just love this. It’s language that I haven’t heard before, but it’s the kind, I teach memoir and I teach that the scene has to not only move time forward, but it must move forward your argument. And it’s a very difficult thing to explain, but some people who play the piano can relate to it. It’s like having a left hand and a right hand.

You’ve got your bass, you’ve got your sort of soprano line up at the top. And one is the story, the plot, but the other one is what is it that’s moving forward? But I love “and so,” I love the demand for transaction there from that. That’s fantastic. And tell me about a sensitivity reader.

I’ve heard the expression, some people have, but I bet a lot of the people listening have not. What is the value and what is the intent of having a sensitivity reader?

Khadijah: So for me, if I am writing a character whose lived experience in any way is different than mine, even if they’re Black American Muslim, then I want to get feedback. And I think this is a noble profession and we need them. So I am willing to pay good, hard-earned money so that somebody will read it and make sure that I am not doing a disservice to that character. And I specifically in Fatima Tate for the best friend Zeynab, because one, I knew it was going to cause controversy because Zeynab is Fatima’s best friend, but she also has a girlfriend.

So I knew that was going to be a problem for some Muslims and some of the one stars on Goodreads reflected that, which I don’t read reviews. So that’s what my girls told me.

Marion: You’ll live longer.

Khadijah: Exactly. So I specifically wanted my sensitivity reader to read Zeynab and make sure Zeynab’s relationship with her girlfriend, Amber, was the healthiest relationship in the book.

Marion: Oh, I know. I noticed. And I loved that. And I think it’s perfect. So the sensitivity reader, it’s a very welcome addition to the number of editors and beta readers and all the things I hear about when people tell me they’ve got 18 beta readers, I always get very nervous. But when somebody tells me they have a sensitivity reader, I think think, okay, good.

And so let’s talk about the value of getting it right. Let’s start with diversity. The value of diversity in reading. I always say to people that if you, you know, you cannot see it, you cannot be it. But I’m quite sure that that expression is not in any way covering the advantages of having diverse shelves in both our bookstores and libraries. So you’ve got a queer character in Fatima Takes the Cake and you’ve got the Muslim themes. You’ve got absolutely, positively, a wonderful pantheon of diverse themes. And so what is the advantage do you see? And we talked about this a little bit in the beginning, but what is the advantage of diversifying our bookshelves? You know, we’re under such attack right now for simply being. You’re under attack. I’m not. I have tremendous privilege. You’re under a tremendous attack for being in the space. But I accept that as part of my responsibility too, to uphold everybody’s space on those shelves. What are we looking toward when we say “diverse shelves?”

Khadijah: I think what we’re looking for is recognition that we exist. It was a crazy World Read Aloud Day for me. I had a few librarians reach out to me. So one of the visits that I did was a school in Texas and it was five classrooms at once. And it was organized chaos and I loved it because I was talking to teenagers and then I had a teenager ask me, “Do you think you’ll write about anything else? Like I know you write about Black American Muslims, but will you ever venture out into anything else?” And I said, “I have the ability to do that. But right now my focus is on providing books so that people like my three daughters are seen on the printed page because I never want another teenage girl or young man to be told you can’t be Black American and Muslim at the same time.”

And I just want a recognition and I want people to understand that our lived experience, you know, there are some differences because of faith and because of culture. But you know, the themes in my books are universal and I want people to acknowledge that and to see it. And if they see it in fiction and then maybe that opens their eyes a little bit, then, you know, I’ve done my job.

Marion: Yes, you have. And you do your job in a lot of ways. I mentioned in the intro that you were selected for the Highlights Foundation Muslim Storytellers Fellowship. It was a two year fellowship in children’s literature, and it was intended to elevate U.S. Muslim storytelling with the goal of increasing mutual understanding and well-being among diverse populations. And it created space for more diverse, authentic Muslim narratives for children and young adults. So it begs the question, because they talk in their literature of the Fellowship, its intent was to address common misperceptions of those narratives in the children’s publishing industry. So it begs the question, what common misperceptions?

Your young reader in Texas asked you, “Are you ever going to get off of this space?” But you know, you’re there to do this work with highlights to combat these misconceptions. And I wonder if that young reader or any young readers are aware of what it is their biases are before they read these books. Just give us some sense of what those misconceptions are in popular culture.

Khadijah: I think the thing is, is that because of the media these days, and I can say in the past as well, that it’s just the existence of you being Black American and Muslim at the same time, so that we exist and that our lives are not that different than anybody else’s. And especially in coming of age stories, I mean, you have the same universal themes of, well, what about what I want versus what my parents want, which is what my teachers want, what my community wants from me, and, you know, all of the things and finding yourself and finding your voice and that Muslim women don’t have agency. And that goes back to how they were raised.

I’m sorry to tell you, but there’s more than a billion, probably close to two billion Muslims on this planet. And there are women doing amazing things. And I want people to understand that, yes, there are people who, within my faith community, who want to limit women. But there are so many others. I just came back this past Saturday, my daughter got her Master’s Degree in global economic affairs. And her best friend is starting her residency. And she also got a Master’s in public health.

I mean, there are women out here doing all the things and we get choices just like everybody else. And I think that’s the misconception that because of how Islam has been painted, that’s why it doesn’t equate in some people’s brain that you can be a Black American and then also be Muslim, because why would you be going backwards? Like you have all the rights. I have all the rights.

The hijab on my head is my choice. I mean, there’s nobody outside my front door saying, get back in the house. You’re not covered correctly. You know, this is a choice that I have. And so I think that that’s what I try to, within my stories, and I want teenagers to understand or other readers, you know, as long as it’s age appropriate or your parents feel that you can handle the books that I write, because chapter 15 of Fatima Tate is not for the faint of heart. I want you to understand that we have more in common than we have differences. And then I want everybody to expand their definition of what it means to be an American.

Marion: It’s such a great answer, and I so appreciate it. And it sounds like it’s the flame that fuels a lot of your literature. As you continue to look out over the landscape of America, of your own family, of New Mexico, of the libraries, of the bookstores, where do you want to go next?

Khadijah: For me, partnering with people who are like-minded, now, even if they haven’t read my books or they don’t read Young Adults or whatever, but I have met so many teachers, librarians, whether in public schools, whether in public libraries, just readers, other authors who understand. And it’s heartening for me that when I tell people that the reason that I started writing was to have more representation, the vast majority of teenagers that I interact with, they get it. Now, I’ve had some adults who raise their eyebrows and say, well, why is that important? But the target audience for my books, they understand, like, there’s nothing wrong. I’m not trying to diminish somebody different than me by writing about, you know, stories about Black American Muslims. I just want, I want to be, I want all the stories to be told. That’s why I tell people, if you’ve ever thought of writing, please check out my website. Check out the resources, because somebody with a background in accounting and a half-finished MBA like I do, I never thought this would be me.

Marion: So that begs the question of when you turned your eye to this, did you bring some of the skills of your former life of the accounting with a half-finished degree? Did you bring some of that to the work? Was this a shedding of a former self or an enhancing of a former self?

Khadijah: I think I used the skills, for example, I’m very detail-oriented, and that is because of my degree in accounting and, you know, I did taxes for a minute. That would be such a great name for a company, taxes for a minute. Yes, taxes for a minute. So for example, I can tell other writers that I cannot survive and I will never send a book to my agent slash editor if there’s a plot hole that I have not fixed. Any plot hole that you can come up with, I have already thought of the answer. I have made sure that 360 degrees, my plot hole is filled, like why did she, but why didn’t she? I would hate, it would be so detrimental to me if I was giving my character an impossible choice and then a reader came to me and said, why didn’t she just go from point A to point B, problem solved?

Marion: Yeah, I love that. Accountant-turns-writer fills every plot hole. It’s just perfect. And as we wrap this up, I would love to know, and I know that everybody listening wants to know about just your day. I mean, it’s the question that everybody asks writers, “How do you do it?” We’ve talked about your scene cards and we’ve talked about getting those themes and it’s character driven, but in terms of discipline or rigor or habituating the work, what’s it look like? Do you write in the morning? Do you edit in the afternoon? Have you heard everything? Just give us a sense of how you do it.

Khadijah: Okay. So for me, depending on the task at hand, like I turn something in, I had a quick turnaround before I had to go to my daughter’s graduation. I got a frantic email saying, there’s an editor interested in this thing that you did, but she wants you to make a few changes. So I had to stop what I was doing and take a week and then go to the library and then, you know, and revise something. So for me, every year I buy a planner that has day blocks, you know, for every single day. And so for example, when I have an assignment or if I have a project and then I have to break it down, I write it down.

Also to deal with imposter syndrome, because I still have imposter syndrome. For example, every project that I do has a playlist. So for me to get butt in chair, the first thing that I have to do is I turn on the playlist and I get myself inside of that project and I’m like, okay, so my brain knows when that playlist comes on, it’s time to get to work. So I look at the schedule of what I have to do because I have to, I schedule a time off, you know, it’s to the nth degree.

Marion: The accountant as writer to the nth degree. I said before that I had heard everything. I totally take it back. Nobody has ever told me that the playlist cues the creativity. So now I must ask you for at least one song from the playlist from this wonderful book, The Perfect Family.

Khadijah: So “Blended Family” by Alicia Keys. Of course. Of course.

Marion: Perfect. Thank you, Khadijah. Thank you so much. It’s an honor to talk to you. We had some thunder and lightning in the middle of that. I don’t know if the listeners can hear it, but it was a very electrifying conversation and I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

Marion: And good luck with the book. I just love your books and I’m literally waiting by the bookshop door for the next one.

Khadijah: Thanks a million. Thank you so much.

Marion: The author is Khadijah VanBrakle. See more on her at khadijahvanbrakle dot com. Her new book is My Perfect Family. Just out from Holiday House Books. Get it wherever books are sold. Follow the author on Instagram at khadijahvanbrakle. I’m Marion Roach Smith and you’ve been listening to QWERTY. QWERTY is produced by Overhead Studios in Albany, New York. Reach them at overit studios dot com. Our producer is Jacqueline Mignot. Our assistant is Lorna Bailey. Want more on the art and work of writing? Visit marionroach.com, the home of The Memoir Project, where writers get their needs met through online classes on how to write memoir. And thanks for listening. Don’t forget to follow QWERTY wherever you get your podcasts and listen to it wherever you go. And if you like what you hear, please leave us a review. It helps others to find their way to their writing lives.

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